No arguement Jon. I'd be curious to know if you can sum it up, what Lionel had to say about their management of the K-Line product line. My reference to K-Line was with the orginal company MDK under Maury Klein's ownership. And it wasn't hard to see as early as 200 that K-Line was headed down because they were investing far too much money into products that simply have no chance in ever making a return on their costs. In part because those products are too expensive, too detailed and aimed at the smallest portion of the already small 3-rail market.
As far Sanda Kan, Lionel does have exclusive rights to the former K-Line products. So in my take on the agreement, it is doubtful that anyone else other than Lionel can use these dies and tooling. It is entirely possible that there are duplicate or updated sets of dies for the S-2 switcher, as there are with some of the other products (for example the 3-dome 027 tank car, MDK 5000 series and the Kusan origin MDK 6000 series caboose) that were made by Taylor Made Trains and now RMT.
Anyone who is as big a fan of the K-Line S-2 as I am knows that K-Line made modifications to the body casting of the S-2 during it's production life for ease of painting and lettering applications. The deep channels between the side body doors will filled in substantially, so it's possbile there is a dublicate body casting. Just as with the 6400 series box car: when K-Line changed the Classic series car and added metal ladders, they had a new casting made. The old dies were used for the Train-19 box cars which had the ladders cast into the body.
From personal conversations at K-Line, I was told the S-2 was more expensive to produce than the MP-15. I din't needto be told why... I knew off the bat it was the complicated cut and folds involved in making the sheet metal frame of the S-2. There was talk at K-Line of making modifications to the S-2 to maximize profits, but they never happened. It's not unlikely that RMT will simplify the sheet metal frame and use molded front steps attached to the truck as with the MP-15. Or they'll tool a new plastic piece that attaches to the frame.
My feelings on MTH are just a gut feeling, as they were about K-Line years ago. MTH could go on as a high-end niche player true. And we don't know this because MTH is a privately owned company, but my feeling is that they are more in debt that we know. Just as it was later confirmed K-Line was more in debt than anyone realized. Though looking at the vast amounts of high end tooling K-Line was doing, it was obvious even if it was unspoken.
It has long been rumored that some individuals have been bankrolling MTH (Tony Lash's name comes up though he has had no comment on this that I know of) and I wouldn't doubt that for a minute. By MTH's own statements, they have millions upon millions of dollars into new tooling. Given the overall market figures that I read about, I truly doubt MTH has been able on product sales alone to recoup such a large sum of money. And they continue with even more high end products.
MTH has had a long history of tightly controlling product production numbers by basing them on confirmed preorders. While being a frugile production move, that says to me they cannot chance overproducing and cannot chance making less money on the products than they need to. Customers do not preorder starter set items or train sets... they have to be made in quantity and available. Remeber recently how Lionel completely underestimated the success of the Polar Express set and couldn't meet demand that first holiday season. You CANNOT base starter/beginner items based on customer preorders... or on dealer pre-orders since most dealers don't want to have this items in stock until the peak buying season. MTH cataloged a bunch of Rugged Rails horn only SD90MACs but then cancelled most of them due to lack of dealer preorders. Bad move. Beginners can't buy what isn't made. Companies need to have enough of these starter types of products in distribution stock to fulfill needs on short order. Die-hard established train guys might preorder. Beginners do not.
Their control system while having its' own merits, isn't nearly as popular as TMCC, yet MTH has admitted they have more than $10M into it. MTH has long been down on 027 products and produces scant very few. Yet from everything I read, hear and see, this IS the largest segment of the buying market. MTH makes these huge catalogs and yet there is NOTHING in them for guys like me. I don't even bother looking or asking for them anymore. And I've had others tell me the same exact thing.
So you have a product company that is completely ignoring the largest sector of buyers. I don't know, but it's just a gut feeling I have that MTH will be the next to go under.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
You know Brian, it was while reading your post that I remembered: Lionel doesn't own the K-Line S-2 tooling, Sanda Kan does! And I imagine that if Sanda Kan wants to let Walt use it, they can!
In regards to your theory about the life of MTH, it sounds like K-Line will live as you envisioned it based on what Lionel had to say at York yesterday. MTH may survive very well, just as a niche player in the world of high-tech, high detail trains. Lionel can take the "big middle".
Jon
I don't want to sound full of myself, but I really do believe I have a good handle on this hobby. I sincerely doubt there's any one other person active on either major train forum who has spent as much time and effort talking to novices and newcomers as I have.
As years ago I said publically that K-Line would be the first company to go under, I've been saying that RMT has really got a grip on what this hobby NEEDS. Yes, I am very excited to see RMT bring back the MARX/K-Line origin S-2 switcher. It may be weird Jon, but RMT will issue the loco in roadnames that Lionel isn't even aware exists... or so it seems. Lionel seems to think that modelers who want this kind of low priced basic no-frills product aren't aware of CSX, BNSF or NS. So both Lionel and RMT are making this: who do you think will do a better job? The answer is a no-brainer: RMT.
And unless the TCA makes major changes, YORK is gonna fade too. The show will have much less relevance in the upcoming decade. And I personally think unless MTH starts making more effort to go after the budget/novice market, they're gonna go too. We'll see how the lawsuit ultimately plays out. But I think MTH really needed that judgement money... they've spent too much on new tooling - and mostly high end tooling - that cannot generate enough payback soon enough.
Ironically while a scant few are probably bummed that Lionel's Legacy system is still holed up on the development table (where they should leave it, and forget about it), the big news from YORK is RMT's expansion with yet another affordable product. Funny how I talked to K-Line about the S-2 and as adamant as they were about not bringing it back, I was as adamant that I was right and that they should bring it back.
Therer's room for high end products. But the train companies have been as foollish as a drunk at the blackjack table about electonics and the scale high end. K-Line folded on that table and MTH could easily do so also. Compromise is the future of the hobby, which means affordable starter products - and some kind of practical transformer based wireless control system that will operate any train ever made without having to spend hundreds of dollars on each and every loco to update it. Thes closest thing to this is MTH's flawed IR controller.
Well I say BRAVO RMT! In my book they were the company of the year last year, and now drum roll please....
The winner for the Brianel 2007 Train Company of the Year Award goes to RMT for the second time running. Congratulations Walter. You're little company has done what the big brains at Lionel and MTH just cannot seem to figure out.
The wierd thing is: K-Line by Lionel has already cataloged the K-Line S-2. Two paint schemes too. It's on page 16 of the current catalog, MSRP $74.99.
Bob Keller
I'm pretty much on the same page as you guys. I had hoped that the old K-Line S-2 might reappear as a "K-Line by Lionel" offering. I imagine that Walter will take a great engine and make it even better, while keeping the price modest!
Hey Walter, how about a GM&O version of the S-2?
TCA#09-63805
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
"RMT announced that it will re-launch the K-Line S-2 and an S-4 with added detail."
Brianel and Allan Miller will be glad to read this. I'd buy one!
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Editor Neil Besougloff and Associate Editor Kent Johnson report from the bi-annual TCA York train show here:
http://www.trains.com/ctt/default.aspx?c=a&id=826
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month