Modeling a Merger RR: Conrail

[phillyreading]

Thank you for the info Brianel027,

Sorry if I happen to be a bit anti-Conrail but I like steam power locomotives better than diesel.

Also on another note the CNJ and Reading Railroad were on friendly terms as they would exchange frieght cars quite a bit and allow each other's trains to run on the other's tracks quite a bit, so to see a CNJ loco in Allentown PA or Philadelphia on Reading tracks was not uncommon.

Didn't realize that insurance was that much of an issue for steam railroads today, maybe that is why the Northern & Reading is only handling frieght service between Reading and Scranton PA, they have at least seven rebuilt Reading diesel locomotives for motive power in Reading colors.

New Haven has some nice equipment far as electric commuter trains go, I was in Stratford Conn. about 10 years ago, happened to be at the Stratford railroad station when an electric commuter train pulled in, could here the brakes as it stopped and heard the electric motors as it took off, very quiet running train.

Lee F.

[brianel027]

Thank you Bruce. You're right on that one. You know, I'd obviously forgotten about those. And though I like those lines, I'm a big New Haven fan too, so I should have remembered that one.

Now that I think about it, it's odd how it took so many years for the large eye-catching logos to really take hold. The late 1960's/early 1970's is when the large simplified logos seemed to take off. It's a statement of longevity how long the CN logo has lasted - not just the railroad itself, but the logo too. BNSF has changed their several times in the past few years.

Thanks for the correction. Not off topic at all... kinda related to the whole theme.

[Anonymous]

 Even the large PC logo of the Penn Central began the trend of large simplified eye-catching train logos: the Chessie kitten, the ROCK, the large BN of the Burlington Northern,  the broken dotted rail of the Illinois Central, and the list goes on.

Getting off topic a bit here....

Created by outstanding graphic designer, Alan Fleming, the CN logo predates the PC's by a number of years ( publicly released in 1961 ).  I believe this to be the real introduction of north american railroads using simplified logos that got the message across using easily identifiable symbols.  I recall a whole period of art class dedicated to the then cutting edge CN logo, it's secrecy during design and it's huge success.  Of course the similarity of GT and CV logos is no coincidence considering that these are CN subsiduaries.  One might also argue a case for the NH logo, which even predates CN's.

Bruce Webster

[scottychaos]

actually..every Conrail ancestor was a HUGE success!

You mean like, Penn Central ? It was a @#$& disaster.

 

 

well ok, you got me there! ;)

I agree PC could not be considered a success.

but I was thinking more along the lines of PRR, NYC, LV, RDG, CNJ, etc..

those railroads were once very sucessful..if you are talking about 1880 or 1910 or 1945..

you cant really say "New York Central was a failure"..yes, in 1968 it was..

but overall, throughout its history, it was much more of a success than a failure.

thats where I was going..

 

Scot 

[brianel027]

Lots of things to comment on here:

I have sympathy for Conrail banning steam.... it's not just them. The Reading and Northern was running steam excursions until the insurance became cost prohibitive. I have a friend involved in a excursion railroad line and he tells me NS has very strick rules about allowing old rolling stock to be moved on their rails. It takes a huge amount of money for them to just move a train car for refurbishing on the Norfolk Southern main.

Truth be told, the railroads make money on freight, not on excursions or on moving old antiquated frieght cars for refurbishing. And with many right of ways down to single tracks, the major current lines do not want delays due to breakdowns of equipment that does not generate the revenue freight does. Business is tough... read Trains magazine with their recent stories on the UP, CSX, and NS.

For all the love of PRR and NYC, the Penn Central was truly innovative in some respects. Much of the pending legislation over operating rules was denied by the government, until the government was saddled with ownership of the rail lines under the banner of Conrail. It was amazing how quickly how many of the Penn Central's previous requests were immediately approved. Conrail was expected to be in the red until the year 2025.... Conrail was in the black by 1985. Conrail was a huge success story, but at a heavy cost... many union railroad workers lost their jobs in droves. But the other option of no rail service in the northeast US would have been a disaster. Even the large PC logo of the Penn Central began the trend of large simplified eye-catching train logos: the Chessie kitten, the ROCK, the large BN of the Burlington Northern,  the broken dotted rail of the Illinois Central, and the list goes on.

Having read several books on the debacle of the Penn Central, it's more than obvious there's plenty of blame to go around on all sides... not just management, but the terrible begrudging attitude of the rank and file. All the prior northeast lines all ONCE had their moments of glory... even the Jersey Central which was in the worst financial and equipment-wise shape at the time of the Conrail merger. The Reading and the Lehigh Valley made vallant efforts to avoid the Conrail merger, but the losses of frieght/coal revenue, duplication of routes, and competition from trucking all took their toll. Forced operation of money losing passenger routes didn't help. The Lehigh petitioned and was granted permission to drop passenger service around 1959-60. Penn Central was still saddled with money losing passenger routes.

For all the doom and gloom of the black PC color scheme, the other northeast lines were a painters pallet of color: The Lehigh Valley, Reading, and CNJ were all rainbows of color. Especially with the financial constraints of the CNJ, they were running passenger cars from all over the country in original paint on their track. THere was a joke that the "Empire Builder" had become the "Jersey Builder."

BUT for a train layout, I agree that this is a fascinating era to model and have long done so. It was hardly uncommon to see PC, RDG, LV, EL, N&W, D&H locos over Conrail track in my area. The Lehigh had a friendly relationship with the N&W and D&H. It was common to see B&O/Chessie power on the CNJ lines, along with EL. Paint schemes were all over the place, from the lousy roller jobs to more complete variations. It amazes me how the train companys always want to make CR blue colored box cars, when there was only ONE done this way. There were far far more Conrail box cars done in Penn Central green.

Even today, it's a fascinating period. In the past month on the NS main line only blocks from my house, I've seen Canadian Pacific, Canadian National, Union Pacific, CSX, original Conrail, and BNSF motive power. In the past year I've unbelievably seen rolling stock still in orignal paint in the following: B&O, C&O, Erie Lackawanna, Penn Central and Reading. There's a B&O hopper currently parking on the siding into the World Kitchen plant (formerly Corning pressware).

This is one of the reasons why I will never understand the lack of current roads on stater trains. In this area, you cannot help but see trains. You can't go to Wal-Mart without seeing a train. The NS main runs along side the major highway. The elevated overhead line still to this day runs through Elmira only with NS trains now. But you are as likely to see locos from all around the country as well as NS.

And as related on a recent thread, I've seen more waffle box cars this past week in CSX, Conrail, BNSF and NS.

[phillyreading]

Penn Central may have been formed for tax shelter porposes, not sure but not properly managed from what I have heard.

Conrail served a purpose too!  It held together the railroad system until private railroads could get operating again in this country. After a few years of being around Conrail banned steam locomotives from the main lines, because a steam loco shut down one out of four tracks at Horseshoe Curve by Altoona PA for over six hours one day, which meant NO excursion trains being pulled by steam over any Conrail line.  If a diesel loco broke down on an electric line would you ban all further diesel loco's from running on the line?  I don't think so, to me Conrail was too harsh on steam loco's and I sold all my Conrail trains right after hearing of that incident and won't buy anything related to Conrail.

Personally I am not a fan of Conrail!!

Lee F.

[csxt30]

I can add that one reason PennCentral didn't do well was because of the two sets of rules they had. Pc had to honor the old NYC rules & PC had to honor the old Pennsy rules. When I started on PC in 75, all the CentraL side guys were talking about how the Pennsy side guys were backrupting the RR !! I saw it happening then when Pennsy guys would get in a caboose after I had just serviced it & call me back saying the the toilet didn't work, they stuuffed it full of paper so it wouldn't work & they wouldn't have to go, getting more terminal time. They would cut the generator belts & get down the road a ways & the lights wouldn't work, another cab would have to be found. They would drain the water out of the tank & then need to get water. All kinds of delays & blame us for the problem when they destroyed everything to get more terminal time. Plenty more things they were doing too. That's the bad side of PC back then. I'm glad I got through that !!

Thanks, John     

[Anonymous]

actually..every Conrail ancestor was a HUGE success!

You mean like, Penn Central ? It was a @#$& disaster.

If all of them had been huge successes, then Conrail would have never happened.

The railroad that was in the best shape at the time that Conrail was formed was probably the Reading. Hurricane Agnes in 1972 wiped out a whole bunch of old RR infrastructure in the mid-atlantic and norteast states.  That event alone killed off many profitable short lines that couldn't afford to rebuild on such a biblical scale. Larger carriers weren't immune - they got hit hard in the pocketbook too. A lot of bridges and trackage got destroyed that was never rebuilt because no one could afford it.

Perhaps what you meant was that most of the ancestor railroads were all great railroads at one time - ABSOLUTELY.

The PRR & NYC lineage alone - it doesn't get much better than that.

 

 

 

[ChiefEagles]

When I went to the train yard near Harrisburg PA [with all those Yanks], I saw a lot of Conrail with the NS.

[phillyreading]

If you want to model a little more current you can add CSX or Norfolk Southern.  I have seen Conrail freight cars as far south as Homestead FL(30 miles south of Miami on the east coast of Florida), sometimes a Conrail loco with CSX loco's leading the pack in West Palm Beach FL.  Another thing to note is that even down here in Florida some of the railroads run up to five diesel locomotives together and pull up to 220 freight cars, Florida is a very long state.   Norfolk Southern sometimes runs four GP60's together to Miami FL.

Reading Lines(freight division of Reading) went into Conrail but Reading Company (passenger service) some went into Amtrac and other passenger cars were sold off. 

Conrail took most of the rolling stock and maintenance cars but left a few to be had by railroad museums.  Conrail today is about 8 to 10% of what it once was at it's peak, CXS and a couple other railroads bought up a lot of Conrail equipment.

Lee F.

[Wes Whitmore]

I still see conrail cars almost every day on the CSX line though columbus. 

[scottychaos]

 

Nice concept! :)

I always wanted to model early conrail..havent yet though.

 

Unlike most of its ancestors, Conrail was a success. Now absorbed by NS and CSX, it may be to some just another fallen flag but still fresh in my mind and memory.

 

actually..every Conrail ancestor was a HUGE success!

it just depends what year you are talking about! ;)

 Scot

[Anonymous]

Modeling a merger RR -          

Even though most of my layout is stuck in the 50's, I have decided to relax that rule of thumb a bit for some slightly more modern equipment . For me that means mid 1970's up to the end of the caboose era circa 1982/83. No freight trains without a caboose for me!

At that time, I was living in Baltimore and the principle railroads I saw day in and day out would have been Amtrak, Chessie System and Conrail. I have embarked on a minor buying program in order to populate Jasper's Rock with examples from each of these railroads.
 
One advantage to modeling the earliest existance of these RRs is that since all three were born out of mergers and consolidations, there is a great variety of inherited equipment. In Conrail's case, that meant equipment from: Central Railroad of New Jersey, Erie Lackawanna, Lehigh & Hudson River, Lehigh Valley, Penn Central and Reading. Since Penn Central didn't last very long, the PC roster of equipment would have included PRR and New York Central too and there are probably some other RR's I'm leaving out.

In the earliest years of operation new equipment - ordered by Conrail - would just be coming on-line. Most of the rest of the equipment roster would have been stuff they inherited, repainted. But a lot of this equipment would still be waiting to be  re-painted. Some of the inherited fleet would have been "double stamped" or just stenciled over.  Some wouldn't even have gotten around to that yet and their predecessor paint would remain. For the early Conrail modeler, that means your locomotives and equipment might say "Conrail" (or just "CR") or any of the many railroads mentioned. Add to that mix the normal amount of cars from interconnecting railroads and you have a "crazy quilt" of roadnames that can all be assembled under the guise of a "Conrail" train. Early on, everything running under Conrail stewardship was formerly some other railroad.

For my initial Conrail locomotion I have chosen the new Alco Century C630's from Atlas. I already have lots of EMD GPs and SDs and I have always had a soft spot for Alcos. These would have started out life on the PRR or Reading (The PRR was a loyal Alco customer right up until the end) and in fact only survived in Conrail blue until the late 70's before being scrapped. By the time the caboose was gone, so too were most of the Alco Centurys. The six-wheeled, 3000 hp locomotives were quite successful in their day (built in 1965-67) and have a look all their own - like the rounded roof, big ol' fuel tank and distinctive trucks.

Bringing up the rear is this N7D bay window caboose. These came over from the Erie Lackawanna.  I think the bay window look is neat and I need another NE-6 or E/V caboose like I need a hole in the head. But, because of equipment inheritance you can run almost any ex-PRR, ex-NYC, ex-EL, etc caboose in Conrail blue.

For me, an old PRR fan, watching CR equipment run that I know had previously been PRR was like seeing ghosts.  You know, you can paint PC, CR, Amtrak, CNJ or whatever you like on a GG1 but we all remember where the GG1 came from.  In a similar way, these ex PRR Alcos lived out the rest of their days in Conrail blue.

Unlike most of its ancestors, Conrail was a success. Now absorbed by NS and CSX, it may be to some just another fallen flag but still fresh in my mind and memory.

Well, I'm off to York in a couple of days to look up some more CR equipment! I'll also be looking at Penn Central, EL, Lehigh, Reading, etc

Sources: Conrail Cyclopedia, Conrail Modeler's Resource, Northeast Railfan