Last summer I purchased a Lionel 752E Union Pacific M10000 City of Portland 3 car passenger set. This is the 1st prewar items I've added to my collection. Overall, the M10000 in fair condition. Lots of scratches and a couple small spots where the paint has chipped away leaving exposed metal. I currently a member of the corrosion control team for support equiptment, in the USN. I know the danger of exposed metal, and rust. I would like the apply some touch up paint to the spots that need attention. Without doing a full restoration. I have heard that application of the touch up paint will effect the value of the set. Does this myth hold water? What advice do u folks have? Respectfully, Patrick S.
If it's touched up, it likely would affect the value to any collector who might want to buy it later on. A touch up would likely not make all that much difference to someone who bought the train to run it.
Personally, I think you should enjoy it in whatever way you care to. Future value of toy trains is not something to be overly concerned about at this point since the collector market is not what it once was, and the tremendous glut of new trains in recent years is likely to have a negative impact on values across the board in the future, with some exceptions. At least that's my considered opinion.
For what it's worth, though, "touching up" a collectible is not a myth. Touched-up and/or restored items are generally worth less than an item in original condition. That applies to everything from furniture to toys, as you'll see if you follow the antiques and collectibles market closely or watch "Antiques Roadshow" on PBS.
Patrick,
In general, touchup does lower the value of a piece. If you do not intend to sell it, do whatever you'd like. If collector value is important, I would consider restoring the piece.
There is also a myth/or truth don't know which, that sometimes lionel workers touched up pieces before sending them out from the factory. I've have no idea if this is true or not but my 2025 has a couple of touch-ups that are so close in color match that I've always wondered. The only way you really notice them is in certain lighting conditions and because the areas is slightly raised and of slightly different texture. The color seems to be dead on.
Mike S.
Patrick: I would just do whatever I felt like doing. If you bought the train to run, and it is running, touch it up if you want to. If you bought it as an investment, I would consider having a professional restore it. (But, that is only my opinion) Enjoy!
PS. I don't know too much about USN "rust", but I am very familiar with Army foxhole dirt. It ain't no good for engines either. All the best.
flyboy75p wrote: I'm currently a member of the corrosion control team for support equiptment, in the USN.
Well Patrick if your train would turn out looking anything like the aviation support equipment I used to see "touched up" around the flight line at NASO when I was in, I'd definitely say DON'T DO IT!!!
Roland
Personally, I would not buy anything that's been touched up or refinished. On rare occasions I have repainted entire pieces. But when I repaint, I make up my own color schemes, using something that Lionel never made.
My personal feeling...if an item is touched up or restored, and it's done well and matches closely, it's not a negative to me. Of course, all my trains are "runners" and not "shelf queens".I just bought a restored 682 off E-Bay and got a good price on it. It looks really nice. I can't see paying a fortune for a scratched up and rusty item just because it HASN'T been restored and is all original. All original what? Rust and scratches????
Dep
Virginian Railroad
Deputy wrote:My personal feeling...if an item is touched up or restored, and it's done well and matches closely, it's not a negative to me. Of course, all my trains are "runners" and not "shelf queens".I just bought a restored 682 off E-Bay and got a good price on it. It looks really nice. I can't see paying a fortune for a scratched up and rusty item just because it HASN'T been restored and is all original. All original what? Rust and scratches???? Dep
I have to agree. If the piece is scratched or chipped badly, why not restore it or even repaint it in a new color scheme? I own a restored 2025 that looks like it was just made. Who ever repainted it did an incredible job. I love it. AND I got it for a super great price because of the so-called stigma of it being a restored piece.
On the other hand, I have a few very clean post war Hudsons that only have a few chips in the paint. I sent them out for mechanical service and both came back touched up. I removed the touch up paint with some alcohol because in my estimation, the trains are worth more as-is. I now have a 736 that could go either way, but I'm leaning toward a touch up. I can always remove it if it's not convincing.
I have a post war 2037 that has a badly scratched and chipped original paint job. I just bought a shell for it at a train show that's in very nice shape. I'm going to strip off the bad shell's paint and re-paint it pink for my daughter. Sacralidge? I don't think so.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
LOL...I did the ultimate "travesty". One of my 2671 tenders had a burn/melt mark on the shell. No real way of repairing that so I bought a repro Pennsy 2671 shell. Dang thing looks beautiful and I don't see where I hurt the value at all.
jaabat wrote:I'm buying a repro 2671 shell tomorrow! Mine is missing a rear step.
DOH! I forgot mine was missing a step too!!!! That must be pretty common problem with postwar tenders of that type. The ones I've seen on E-Bay seem to all be that way. Also steps on the turbines are missing too.
Hey Jim...I've been thinking about installing rear light kits in my 2671 shells. Any idea if that is a difficult job or pretty easy? I know they sell a kit for that, but it doesn't show up very well. I've had one in a previous 2671 and it was pretty dim. Maybe use a different kind of bulb or LEDS instead of one bulb?
Deputy wrote: LOL...I did the ultimate "travesty". One of my 2671 tenders had a burn/melt mark on the shell. No real way of repairing that so I bought a repro Pennsy 2671 shell. Dang thing looks beautiful and I don't see where I hurt the value at all. Dep
You replaced a damaged shell with a reproduction. Where is the travesty? Undoubtedly you didn't hurt the value either.
On the other hand. It shouldn't be as valuable as an all original 2671 tender in nice shape.
The original poster asked about doing touch-ups. Maybe I am mistaken, but to me, asking about touch-ups infers that the item is in fairly nice shape to start. If not, then I'd do a custom paint job before I'd do touch ups.
I use reproduction tender shells from time to time too. I picked up a bunch on closeout just a couple of years ago
cwburfle wrote: You replaced a damaged shell with a reproduction. Where is the travesty? Undoubtedly you didn't hurt the value either. On the other hand. It shouldn't be as valuable as an all original 2671 tender in nice shape. The original poster asked about doing touch-ups. Maybe I am mistaken, but to me, asking about touch-ups infers that the item is in fairly nice shape to start. If not, then I'd do a custom paint job before I'd do touch ups. I use reproduction tender shells from time to time too. I picked up a bunch on closeout just a couple of years ago
The "travesty" is that collectors would have a major fit about replacing an original shell with a repro. It ALL has to be 100% original including the boxes they came in. Repro ANYTHING drives them wild and they are experts at spotting repros.
Touch ups can be anything from a couple of scratches to the whole cab area being painted. Again....doesn't mean squat to me as long as it looks good. I once had a 671 turbine that was painted all tuscan red with gold lettering and numbers. The tender even had a decal inside saying who did the painting...some guy named Sherry. Looked really neat...I'm sure a collector would get queasy just looking at it
Dep,
If this Sherry is the one I'm thinking of. This guy is a pretty famous Lionel painter/restorer. I've seen pix of his F3 repaints in McComas Tuohy's Postwar book. He was/is supposedly a real pro.
His full name is Richard Sherry
msacco wrote: Dep,If this Sherry is the one I'm thinking of. This guy is a pretty famous Lionel painter/restorer. I've seen pix of his F3 repaints in McComas Tuohy's Postwar book. He was/is supposedly a real pro. His full name is Richard Sherry Mike S.
yep! That sounds like the name.
Deputy wrote: cwburfle wrote: You replaced a damaged shell with a reproduction. Where is the travesty? Undoubtedly you didn't hurt the value either. On the other hand. It shouldn't be as valuable as an all original 2671 tender in nice shape. The original poster asked about doing touch-ups. Maybe I am mistaken, but to me, asking about touch-ups infers that the item is in fairly nice shape to start. If not, then I'd do a custom paint job before I'd do touch ups. I use reproduction tender shells from time to time too. I picked up a bunch on closeout just a couple of years agoThe "travesty" is that collectors would have a major fit about replacing an original shell with a repro. It ALL has to be 100% original including the boxes they came in. Repro ANYTHING drives them wild and they are experts at spotting repros. Touch ups can be anything from a couple of scratches to the whole cab area being painted. Again....doesn't mean squat to me as long as it looks good. I once had a 671 turbine that was painted all tuscan red with gold lettering and numbers. The tender even had a decal inside saying who did the painting...some guy named Sherry. Looked really neat...I'm sure a collector would get queasy just looking at it Dep
You obviously are not a collector, and don't really understand what collecting is all about. Sure, for an item to be collectable, it should be 100 percent original, but a collector isn't going to get quesy about someone fixing up a runner. If an item is rare enough, a collector will go for one with reproduciton parts or that's been touched up. Of course, a 682 just isn't that scarce. Some collectors are even OK with repaints.
To expect a piece with a reproducton tender shell and/or touch-ups/ repaints to have value that is equal to a nice original item is unreasonable and unrealistic.
cwburfle wrote:You obviously are not a collector, and don't really understand what collecting is all about. Sure, for an item to be collectable, it should be 100 percent original, but a collector isn't going to get quesy about someone fixing up a runner. If an item is rare enough, a collector will go for one with reproduciton parts or that's been touched up. Of course, a 682 just isn't that scarce. Some collectors are even OK with repaints. To expect a piece with a reproducton tender shell and/or touch-ups/ repaints to have value that is equal to a nice original item is unreasonable and unrealistic.
Agreed. An original, unrestored piece is always more valuable than one that's been altered/restored. But as long as the owner or buyer of the piece is happy with it, that's all that matters.
jaabat wrote: cwburfle wrote: You obviously are not a collector, and don't really understand what collecting is all about. Sure, for an item to be collectable, it should be 100 percent original, but a collector isn't going to get quesy about someone fixing up a runner. If an item is rare enough, a collector will go for one with reproduciton parts or that's been touched up. Of course, a 682 just isn't that scarce. Some collectors are even OK with repaints. To expect a piece with a reproducton tender shell and/or touch-ups/ repaints to have value that is equal to a nice original item is unreasonable and unrealistic. Agreed. An original, unrestored piece is always more valuable than one that's been altered/restored. But as long as the owner or buyer of the piece is happy with it, that's all that matters. Jim
cwburfle wrote: You obviously are not a collector, and don't really understand what collecting is all about. Sure, for an item to be collectable, it should be 100 percent original, but a collector isn't going to get quesy about someone fixing up a runner. If an item is rare enough, a collector will go for one with reproduciton parts or that's been touched up. Of course, a 682 just isn't that scarce. Some collectors are even OK with repaints. To expect a piece with a reproducton tender shell and/or touch-ups/ repaints to have value that is equal to a nice original item is unreasonable and unrealistic.
Exactly! That's what I was trying to say in my own clumsy way And no, I'm NOT a collector. Although I DO like to "accumulate" S2 Turbines. Am I an accumulator? Have I discovered a new designation for buying trains???
Back to his Union Pacific "City of Portland". The yellow and brown is hard to match unless you buy the special hobby paints. Touch up, no, it never looks that good, re-paint, maybe, I have seen good ones.
If you like the old used look or are going to run it, why spend the time or money. If you want to have the feeling of a new 1930s train, full repaint.
Value, complete with badly scratched paint, about 50%-60% of an Excellent Original (C7). A re-paint to Excellent Restored would bring 50%-60% of an Excellent Original. It's a wash. The value stays the same. A good Auto Wax will do wonders to that "lead based" paint and prevent rust.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
BDT in Minnesota wrote: jaabat wrote: cwburfle wrote: You obviously are not a collector, and don't really understand what collecting is all about. Sure, for an item to be collectable, it should be 100 percent original, but a collector isn't going to get quesy about someone fixing up a runner. If an item is rare enough, a collector will go for one with reproduciton parts or that's been touched up. Of course, a 682 just isn't that scarce. Some collectors are even OK with repaints. To expect a piece with a reproducton tender shell and/or touch-ups/ repaints to have value that is equal to a nice original item is unreasonable and unrealistic. Agreed. An original, unrestored piece is always more valuable than one that's been altered/restored. But as long as the owner or buyer of the piece is happy with it, that's all that matters. Jim I agree with you Jim,,,,by the way, we are all collectors, whether we collect bottle caps or trains...Collecting is a hobby, not a title to be held by only a remote few people with the very best original pieces...BDT
Absolutely.
Also, I don't know where the idea (shared by some collectors too) that an item has to be excellent or better to be collectable. When I started, you took what you could find, and upgraded when possible. A fellow collector or operator would buy your lesser piece, which would serve them until they could find an upgrade.
Here is the best advise: make certain you are buying what you like, not what some book or other person tells you to buy. Whether you collect, run, or both, they are all just toys.
Thank you to all who reply to this post. I also do not belive in shelf queens. What I have thought about going with this train is touch up the spots that need attention and one day in he future add a diesel horn or a sound system. Thank you for all the advice.
Patrick S.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month