Hello all. I just joined the hobby with my 5 and 3 year old sons and have come across my first challenge. I want to run two trains on a double figure eight with four 90 degree crossovers in the center. I want each of my sons to be able to control their own train using a CW80 transformer. My questions are:
1) How do I wire the two CW80 transformers so that each controls a separate train?
2) How do I set up a block/relay system so that the trains don't crash into each other if they get to the crossovers at the same time (forcing one train to stop until the other clears the crossover).
I am using Fastrack.
Thanks in advance for your help.
MZ
Mickey,
There are two ways to go about this, the first is to use relays and insulating pins to make up block sections, the second way would be to use TMCC by Lionel if using Lionel trains. Maybe some else can explain how to wire this, and there were articles in previous CTT magazines about this but don't recall what issue.
Lee F.
Controlling the trains separately is easy, since the tracks do not connect. You will have to modify the crossings (not "crossovers") to isolate the center rails between the two directions.
The other part is a little tougher. You will need to create control rails for both lines near the crossings. Each of the four tracks will operate its own relay, which will do two things: It will cut power to the center rail of the other line in the other direction near the crossing. And it will disconnect the control rail associated with that same section of track. The latter prevents gridlock when both trains get near the crossing at the same time.
The relays can be AC or DC, operating on any voltage, as long as you supply them with whatever voltage they are rated for. One end of the coil goes to the control rail, the other end to the supply, which should be returned to the outside rails, common with the track voltage.
Unless you have the newer version of the CW80, you cannot use its accessory voltage to power the relays unless you wire it backwards, that is, with the red terminal to the outside rails and black to the center rail, and accept that the bell and whistle functions will be swapped.
Bob Nelson
Thanks.....if anyone has any reference articles or diagrams you can point me to, it would be much appreciated. It's an 8 inside an 8 with O-48 and O-36 curves. Thanks also for the correction on "crossings"....still learning the lingo.
We are running a Lionel Canadian Pacific freight set and a Lionel Polar Express set, for the little guy.
Both are brand new, so I'm assuming the CW80s are the latest.
What you want is possible in a couple of ways. I am not fully familiar with FastTrack, but the principles will be the same. I am not sure of your skill level so i'll do it simply as i would explain it to myself.
The ninety degree crossings are made to make a figure 8, and therefore allow power to pass thru the center 'diamond'. when you put them together as you have with one line crossing over another line, you need to stop the power from going thru the diamond. On tubular track [O, O-27], you turn the track over, snip the wires and make sure the "diamond" doesn't complete the circuit from four side, just two sides. It should be that simple for fastrack, but i am not 100% sure. This allows you to use 2 transformers separately controlling two trains.
Next you need to manage 'collision protection'. Insulated rails and relays are needed. The simplest way is to get devices off the shelf that do it for you. Zstuff makes a product that does exactly what you want and their site shows the wiring diagram. Google Zstuff, take a look at their site under applications, you will see collision protection. It shows how to wire it with the insulated rail and the optic trigger mechanism. If you choose to go this route, there are many who can help you. The alternative is to use relays/insulated rail and construct the circuits yourself. That said, the zstuff wiring diagram will lead you in the correct path.
ralph
Ralph,
Thank you so much....I will check it out. As you probably already figured, right now when I try to control a train with one CW80, both trains move, but not at the same rate because the power consumption is different for each loco. So, first I want to figure out how to control the trains individually, then figure out how to keep them from crashing.
On their own loops, the trains run great and me and my boys are having a blast. Now it's time to step it up a notch.
Building a layout will be my summer project. For now, it's weekends on the floor.
Thanks.
Ralph, I couldn't find anything on Zstuff related to the topic. Do you have a URL? Thanks.
Mickey Zee,
What you are trying to do is really pretty sophisticated. First, I suggest you don't assume anything about your CW-80 controllers. Use an ohmmeter and make sure that on each device the black posts are "common" and the red ones are not.
Second, when my boys were young we built a layout with three independent loops and used three independent transformers. That way I never had to worry about the inevitable train wreck at the crossing. If you go forward with your plan, as "cheech" and others have indicated, you will need to make certain that there is a fair amount of space for "dead" track ("blocks") controlled by the relays, or you could go from two trains to no trains in a hurry.
Hi Mike
Here is the link to the application i described
http://www.z-stuff.net/dz-1008_&_dz-1011_crossover_protection.htm
A while back i posted this picture, so if you search on my id 'cheech' you will find a thread that has picture or two and advice about how to insulate crossovers, i think i remember FastTrack was discussed. This is a key component to make it work.
I am not good at posting pictures/links so if you want to email direct, that is fine, i probably can send pictures better that wayin color it is a lot easier to see the complications and the collision possibilites. This is one of the intersections, using 4 45degree crossings. i use 10 of the detectors and 6 relays. No collisions yet, but a close call or two. I use the basic info in the Zstuff link, then multiply it out. The relays, etc are simple, all color coded for people like me.
Hope this helps
I don't want to rain on anyone's picnic, but isn't the method being discussed here basically very sophisticated 1950's technology. Don't get me wrong; I run strictly "traditional" postwar myself, with almost none of the fancy modern stuff. Nevertheless, if I wanted to do the sort of thing that Mickey Zee wants to do, I think I would find it easier and better in the long run to go with TMCC or DCS or the like? Perhaps he ought to consider the alternatives before committing a lot of time and money to technology that time has largely left in the dust.
I know that Bob Nelson prefers the "old stuff," but he is an electrical engineer (or something) and can make the old technology dance for him. He doesn't have to ask anyone else how to do it. But it seems to me that the typical newbie, with ambitions for a layout with state-of-the-art capabilities, ought to take a hard look at the new stuff.* Personally I avoid it like the plague; make do with old technology that I can understand; and don't push its limits -- but then again I'm a dinosaur.
*Phillyreading hinted at this in his post above.
As a newbee, this is where you should begin to get off the Train....The further advice you may receive will now begin to muddle the solution.
You have sufficient info to construct your automated collision avoidance using sophisticated electronics to do it. The z stuff is about as current as you can get. If there is another way, i'd love to hear it.
TMCC and DCS have no capability to complete what you want. It isn't technically possible at the moment, unless you intend to build a pc board to do it in your spare time
Sheesh, cheech!
Evidently I failed to make my point. I'm not denigrating the sophistication of Z-Stuff's stuff or anybody else's gee-whiz technology. What I have been trying to say is that I think the entire approach is to the layout could be more age-appropriate for three- and five-year old children, and hence simpler. My favorite "collision avoidance system" costs nothing and is 100% reliable. I base my remarks on my training as a behavioral psychologist as well as many years observing two generations of young children play with toy trains, electric and otherwise.
For example, while I think it's good that each child will have his own transformer/controller, the CW-80 is a dreadful device for a child to learn on owing to it's delayed feedback.* I've taught a kid using one but I won't do it again. The younger the child, the more frustrating it is; but several years of psychotherapy can probably undo any damage.
However, if MZ's stated plan is what he really wants to do at this stage, then by all means you, Bob Nelson, and perhaps others should help him do it, and he should ignore my advice.
* Especially the throttle, but also the direction, whistle and bell buttons, depending to some extent on the associated equipment.
Hi,
I'm sure you'll find our website most helpful www.z-stuff.net. On it there are instruction sheets for all our products and application notes for ways to use them. You can feel free to e-mail me at drzander@aol.com with questions.
Denis Zander
Z-Stuff for Trains
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