Bob Nelson
Don,
With regards to "gauge", you could be adding confusion for newbies by using rolling stock to explain the differences...especially when "O" gauge is involved. I'm sure you've noticed the markedly different sizes of "O" gauge equipment offered by an individual maufacturer like Lionel. Some of the prewar "O" gauge was so small it would be better suited as "S" gauge equipment while others ( like 800 series tinplate ) represents something of scale (realistic) size. Yet they all were made to run on "O" gauge track.
When we use the term gauge it's simplest to use track as a comparison point. Gauge refers to the spacing of the rails rather than the size or scale of the equipment. A small collection of different track gauge offerings ( Z through G ) would more accurately represent the the true meaning of the term gauge although not as 3 dimensionally impressive as comparing rolling stock.
Bruce Webster
I've been thinking about this issue for quite awhile, sure glad I put up the question! The information you guys have provided has been extremely informative. I think I have read most of the books about Lionel, Flyer and quite a few on the hobby overall, never have I seen this as well addressed as you guys have done!
Thanks Bob, Chuck, BDT, John and Stix!
An interesting point that was brought up was regarding new people and the confusion, This thread can really help. A much more basic question but related often comes up when people seem my trains, is related to gauge. So what I have done is acquired a caboose from all the gauges and have them displayed on a shelf. It helps to explain to non train persons which is which and easier for people to identify which gauge they previously owned.
Thanks again for all your thoughts and input.
Don
"Semi-Scale" kinda means different things to different people. I see in "Model Railroad Planning 2007" Kalmbach referred to the three rail layout featured there as "semi-scale" even though all the equipment is built to true 1/48th scale, apparently because it uses three-rail track and Lionel type large couplers. As noted earlier, the term goes back to the thirties. Besides the Lionel reference, many people used "scale detailed" undersized equipment from Lionel and American Flyer on their scale layouts because that's what they could afford.
I'm pretty sure the Lionel F3 was full-size from the start, IRRC I read that when it was introduced a "scale" O manufacturer accused Lionel of stealing it's design from them...or was that the EMD switcher?? Anyway, the F3, switcher, GP-7/9 and Trainmaster are all full 1/48th scale I believe, but with some compromises to allow them to run on very tight curves and use the large Lionel couplers. Back in the seventies, a lot of O two-railers used to buy up Atlas O scale F-9's ($20) and combine the powered chassis with Lionel GP bodies to make a...well I guess you'd say "semi-scale" two rail GP.
For a bit of triva, Lionel coined the term semi-scale back in the late 30's with the introduction of the 763E semi-scale hudson and the term got twisted in recent years. The 763 was a stripped down version of the full scale 700E Hudson and sold for $37.50 which was half the price of the $75.00 full scale hudson. Hence the term "semi (half price) scale". The proportions of the 763 were scale and identical to the 700E. It lacked detail however and was furnished with a tinplate vandy tender and tinplate trucks (later to be replaced with a scale tender and tinplate trucks). Lionel also did this with the scale B-6 switcher along with the scale freight cars that got tinplate trucks.
Lionel re-issued the semi-scale cars in 1991 with modern era diecast trucks and cataloged them as semi-scale cars. Still, the cars were scale in size.
Around 1995, MTH introduced there own interpretation of semi-scale sets headed by a Mohawk who's proportions were squished. This lead the way to the twisting of the term "semi-scale" as K-Line introduced a squished hudson and called it semi scale.
I get confused by it all. We got Lionel "Standard O", "Legacy", and "Traditional", MTH "Premier", "Rail King", "Rail King Scale", "Rail King Imperial", ROW "Scale Plate" (now defunct). Atlas "Trainman". Good grief, they should all call it "Full Scale" or "Squish Scale".
If Lionel does another scale Hudson, I hope they give it a PT tender (they can use the Niagra tender) and a Selkirk boiler face. That would be one awesome Hudson.
Post war F-3's are very close to scale in overall dimensions. Length and width are basically dead on but I think they are a little "short". There was some compromise made and the engines look a little squashed when compared to the newer true scale versions. Lionel did pull a lot of stunts on engines originally advertised as "O" which were meant to be sold as "premium" items and were packaged in sets with "O" track. The units were then repackaged with little or no external changes and sold as "O-27". There are some trains that have been marked/marketed as O-31 that definitely will not run on O-27 track because of turn radius or flange issues. Some of the "confusion" has to do with where you measure the radii. Lionel measure outside edge of tie to outside edge of tie. I believe Gargraves measure center rail to center rail. I wouldn't be suprised if someone else measured outside rail to outside rail
To me, it's either scale or it isn't. If they don't say on the box, I take out a ruler and measure or try to guestimate based on the dimensions stated in the catalog (which might be LOA, Coupler center to couper center, end sill to end sill.... Great part about standards are there are so many to chose from.
"Semi scale means not to scale." I agree.
"O-27 means not to scale." Or it could just mean cheaper, as in the case of the F3s that I mentioned above.
"O-31 means the train will not run on O-27 track because the car can't negotiate O-27 curves/switches or the wheel flanges can not handle O-27 profile track." But MTH labels many pieces O31 that will run just fine on O27, a type of track they do not make.
"Traditional means O-27 (aka not to scale)" Most of Lionel's postwar O stuff, which would be considered "traditional", is not to scale and was not O27.
"Standard O means scale (aka 1/48)" Same comment.
"Scale means 1/48 dimensions (unless you are in England where it probably means 1/43, they figured out that the track gauge works out to 1/43 and went with that instead of the easier to use 1/48 which means the O gauge track track is 5' gauge instead of the prototypes 4' 8.5")." The correct scale for 1.25-inch track is 1/45.2, not 1/43. The continental Europeans use 32-millimeter (1.26-inch) track and a scale of 1/45. The British think of O as 7 millimeters/foot, which works out to a scale of 1/43.5 and 33-millimeter track. This is twice HO, which they think of as 3.5 millimeters/foot.
Semi scale means not to scale.
O-27 means not to scale.
O-31 means the train will not run on O-27 track because the car can't negotiate O-27 curves/switches or the wheel flanges can not handle O-27 profile track.
Traditional means O-27 (aka not to scale)
Standard O means scale (aka 1/48)
Scale means 1/48 dimensions (unless you are in England where it probably means 1/43, they figured out that the track gauge works out to 1/43 and went with that instead of the easier to use 1/48 which means the O gauge track track is 5' gauge instead of the prototypes 4' 8.5").
I'm glad you asked the question. If 'it' runs on O27, its Scale really does not matter to me BUT I always like to know. (I'm still learning)
On the other hand, the "General" models are about the only thing Lionel made that has the correct gauge! (The WARR was a 5-foot-gauge road.)
True. It was also pretty close to scale size.
Semi-Scale means NOT scale (at least not 1/48th). Some products labled as such (aka semi scale) are scaled to 1/64, 1/43, 1/50, 1/56, ... These items are dimensionaly proportioned to themselves, e.g.the K-Line Big Boy and Allegheny. Reasonably accurate scale models but not 1/48th scale.
Most "O-27"/"Traditional" items use selective compression to shrink the item down to allow it's use on O-27 track. The item will be shorter than the prototype but it may not even be uniformly shorter. The RailKing Hudson's tender is shrunk considerably from its protoype and the locomotive itself has be selectively compressed to make a model that looks like a Hudson but will run well on O-27 layouts. There are few cases of items actually being larger than scale, particularly 1800 era models that are significantly larger than their protoypes.
TCA#09-63805
Is the K-Line semi-scale O27 ? Trying to figure out where it fits relative to Premium, High Rail, Lionmaster, Rail King etc.
Thanks in advance.
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