3railguy wrote:Our free market system is a two way street. It seems OK for dealer to blow out merchandise for half price. Everyone celebrates.
I know I do!!
Allan Miller wrote: "If you look at any Hobby Shop with the Lionel logo on their door, it says, 'Lionel Authorized VALUE added dealer'. This to means that the dealer is free to charge what the dealer deems appropriate, HOWEVER they are NOT allowed to charge OVER what Lionel sets as it's price. They can sell it for less (a practice Lionel does not approve of), but they should NOT be selling items above the list price in the catalog..."------------------Sorry, but no part of that quote is accurate or correct. For example, the term "value added" has nothing to do with pricing.
"If you look at any Hobby Shop with the Lionel logo on their door, it says, 'Lionel Authorized VALUE added dealer'. This to means that the dealer is free to charge what the dealer deems appropriate, HOWEVER they are NOT allowed to charge OVER what Lionel sets as it's price. They can sell it for less (a practice Lionel does not approve of), but they should NOT be selling items above the list price in the catalog..."
------------------
Sorry, but no part of that quote is accurate or correct. For example, the term "value added" has nothing to do with pricing.
That is correct. It has nothing to do with pricing. The only time the law allowed Lionel to control pricing was around the Korean war which is why we see "Ceiling Price" stamped on the ends of some postwar boxes.
Our free market system is a two way street. It seems OK for dealer to blow out merchandise for half price. Everyone celebrates.
Bob Keller
jaabat wrote: I've been buying undecorated decal sheets from a LHS for years. Always $2 a sheet. Last week the stock was out and I asked the owner to order some more for me. I bought them on Saturday, but they were now $2.50 a sheet. The guy purposely marked them up because he knew I needed them. He does stuff like that since I took him to school with a Lionel 2056 Hudson and 2400 series coaches. He's always trying to stick it to me to even the score. For the most part, I avoid his store. But he's the only one I know of that carries the decal sheets. So I ate you know what this time, but he lost a regular customer. Life's too short to deal with that sort of bull.Jim
I've been buying undecorated decal sheets from a LHS for years. Always $2 a sheet. Last week the stock was out and I asked the owner to order some more for me. I bought them on Saturday, but they were now $2.50 a sheet. The guy purposely marked them up because he knew I needed them. He does stuff like that since I took him to school with a Lionel 2056 Hudson and 2400 series coaches. He's always trying to stick it to me to even the score. For the most part, I avoid his store. But he's the only one I know of that carries the decal sheets. So I ate you know what this time, but he lost a regular customer. Life's too short to deal with that sort of bull.
Jim
The first search I did found this:
http://www.decalpaper.com/
$8.50 for 10 8-1/2" x 11" Inkjet Decal Sheets
add $8.50 shipping and you've got 10 sheets for $1.70 each.
If you buy 50 sheets you'll pay less than a dollar each. Maybe you could sell them to your LHS.
3railguy wrote: ATSJer wrote: stevend wrote: I disagree. The term "Suggested Retail Price" is officially set by the manufacturer.Not you... ....your neighbor next door... .... the guy down the street... .... your local hobby shop owner... .. or anyone else!! Only the manufacturer can set the MSRP.Anyone reading the words "Sugg. retail", knows by implication that it was set by the manufacturer/wholesaler/selling agent.Any retailer misrepresenting the actual MSRP, would most likely suffer the consequences if any legal action was pursued.I don't think that anyone is arguing that the practice isn't shady, it seems to me to be a matter of them taking advantage of "social engineering". In that we are accustomed to understanding things in certain ways when we read them, which sometimes causes us to miss certain key details (i.e. stating "suggested retail" vs "MSRP"). This seller can quite honestly say that the suggested retail price of that locomotive set is $400; what he's not telling you is that the retail price was suggested by the guy's brother. I think what's being said (I know by myself) is that customer research solves this problem, if we do our homework (like we're supposed to) then we won't purchase from shady businesses which may in turn cause them to adjust their business practices and state the real MSRP, if not then they just don't sell them.If you really want to get pro-active then look up where the business is located and call their local BBB and report them for deceptive business practices, until then its buyer beware; and always do your homework.Our free enterprise system allows I or anyone to suggest whatever price we want. Again the retailer unlinked "manufacturer" from "suggested retail" and made "suggested retail" his suggested retail price which is perfecty legal. One point you and a few others are missing is both the manufacturer and the retailer state "suggested". You are confusing "suggested retail" with "ceiling price". The law forbids ceiling prices on non essential goods. Companies have been sued for it. It is often called price fixing. "Suggested" is not a rule. Much like an auction, it allows one to adjust the price to whatever the market will pay.
ATSJer wrote: stevend wrote: I disagree. The term "Suggested Retail Price" is officially set by the manufacturer.Not you... ....your neighbor next door... .... the guy down the street... .... your local hobby shop owner... .. or anyone else!! Only the manufacturer can set the MSRP.Anyone reading the words "Sugg. retail", knows by implication that it was set by the manufacturer/wholesaler/selling agent.Any retailer misrepresenting the actual MSRP, would most likely suffer the consequences if any legal action was pursued.I don't think that anyone is arguing that the practice isn't shady, it seems to me to be a matter of them taking advantage of "social engineering". In that we are accustomed to understanding things in certain ways when we read them, which sometimes causes us to miss certain key details (i.e. stating "suggested retail" vs "MSRP"). This seller can quite honestly say that the suggested retail price of that locomotive set is $400; what he's not telling you is that the retail price was suggested by the guy's brother. I think what's being said (I know by myself) is that customer research solves this problem, if we do our homework (like we're supposed to) then we won't purchase from shady businesses which may in turn cause them to adjust their business practices and state the real MSRP, if not then they just don't sell them.If you really want to get pro-active then look up where the business is located and call their local BBB and report them for deceptive business practices, until then its buyer beware; and always do your homework.
stevend wrote: I disagree. The term "Suggested Retail Price" is officially set by the manufacturer.Not you... ....your neighbor next door... .... the guy down the street... .... your local hobby shop owner... .. or anyone else!! Only the manufacturer can set the MSRP.Anyone reading the words "Sugg. retail", knows by implication that it was set by the manufacturer/wholesaler/selling agent.Any retailer misrepresenting the actual MSRP, would most likely suffer the consequences if any legal action was pursued.
The term "Suggested Retail Price" is officially set by the manufacturer.
Not you... ....your neighbor next door... .... the guy down the street... .... your local hobby shop owner... .. or anyone else!! Only the manufacturer can set the MSRP.
Anyone reading the words "Sugg. retail", knows by implication that it was set by the manufacturer/wholesaler/selling agent.
Any retailer misrepresenting the actual MSRP, would most likely suffer the consequences if any legal action was pursued.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that the practice isn't shady, it seems to me to be a matter of them taking advantage of "social engineering". In that we are accustomed to understanding things in certain ways when we read them, which sometimes causes us to miss certain key details (i.e. stating "suggested retail" vs "MSRP"). This seller can quite honestly say that the suggested retail price of that locomotive set is $400; what he's not telling you is that the retail price was suggested by the guy's brother.
I think what's being said (I know by myself) is that customer research solves this problem, if we do our homework (like we're supposed to) then we won't purchase from shady businesses which may in turn cause them to adjust their business practices and state the real MSRP, if not then they just don't sell them.
If you really want to get pro-active then look up where the business is located and call their local BBB and report them for deceptive business practices, until then its buyer beware; and always do your homework.
Our free enterprise system allows I or anyone to suggest whatever price we want. Again the retailer unlinked "manufacturer" from "suggested retail" and made "suggested retail" his suggested retail price which is perfecty legal. One point you and a few others are missing is both the manufacturer and the retailer state "suggested". You are confusing "suggested retail" with "ceiling price". The law forbids ceiling prices on non essential goods. Companies have been sued for it. It is often called price fixing. "Suggested" is not a rule. Much like an auction, it allows one to adjust the price to whatever the market will pay.
P.S. - Did not mean to upset you with the last post... it was a general comment, not directed at you personally.
3railguy wrote:Our free enterprise system allows I or anyone to suggest whatever price we want. Again the retailer unlinked "manufacturer" from "suggested retail" and made "suggested retail" his suggested retail price which is perfecty legal. One point you and a few others are missing is both the manufacturer and the retailer state "suggested". You are confusing "suggested retail" with "ceiling price". The law forbids ceiling prices on non essential goods. Companies have been sued for it. It is often called price fixing. "Suggested" is not a rule. Much like an auction, it allows one to adjust the price to whatever the market will pay.
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you. I don't think the guy is doing anything "illegal", it just seems to me that he intentionally uses the "suggested retail" to give the impression that this is the "suggested" price set by some authority, and most commonly our culture has come to recognize that authority being the manufacturer; this is what I meant by him taking advantage of the social engineering (i.e. we've been socially "trained" to think in certain ways he simply is trying to take advantage of that training). However, as I think I stated before, the burden still falls on the buyer to do his/her homework before buying, and if this homework is done prior to the purchase then this guy's short term plan simply backfires.
BDT in Minnesota wrote:One of the worst things a business owner can do is assume that his customers will be too stupid to realize the prices have been inflated or "jacked up"....I once worked for an outfit that tried to pull this crap.....
Yep, that kind of thinking is always for the short term gain, but ends up with long term losses of exponential proportions especially in a community like the train hobby where lots of folks really know their stuff. They may sucker the first time buyer, but then they loose that buyer and may cost the industry that collector. The hobbiest simply files the retailer into the "crook" drawer and then moves on.
3railguy wrote:We get your point. However, as I said in my first post, the dealer stated "Suggested Retail", not "Manfacturers Suggested Retail Price".That's his loophole. He left out "Manufacturer" so legally, there is nothing Lionel can do. Technically, he is not misrepresenting them. Our free enterprise laws prevent Lionel from taking any action.
We get your point. However, as I said in my first post, the dealer stated "Suggested Retail", not "Manfacturers Suggested Retail Price".
That's his loophole. He left out "Manufacturer" so legally, there is nothing Lionel can do. Technically, he is not misrepresenting them. Our free enterprise laws prevent Lionel from taking any action.
I disagree.
Regarding the original question, I think if you encounter an MSRP that conflicts with the manufacturer's, then this would be considered an unethical practice, and one should simply not purchase from that particular seller. After all, if the seller sees fit to alter the MSRP, how ethical could his/her other business practices be?
It also seems as is the thread has digressed from a discussion of MSRP to LHS vs. internet puchasing and prices. I have a few thoughts on this. In my area there are two LHS sellers. Both are very ethical people and know a lot about trains. One of these has cleaned up a large Lionel postwar collection for me. I feel comfortable knowing that the job was performed well and I was treated fairly. I have purchased products from both of these businesses. The price was higher than what I would have paid on the internet or by mail order. However, I know when I purchase from either business, I am getting what I have paid for, returns or repairs will be done, if necessary, with no questions asked, and they will answer any questions I have about train collection or operation.
I have also bought by mail order and internet, and have had overall good success with both of those avenues. I have also had a few bad experiences. Have any of you tried to return an item that was purchased via internet? More often than not, the hassle is not worth the dollars saved.
I think it's a question of preference. For me, I would rather give the business to the local guy who shops at the same places I do and is willing to talk to me about what he does and sells. It's a lot more pleasant experience than buying a box of something form someone I don't know, who gets a lot of boxes of product in and out every day. In my opinion it has to do with community and personality, which is one of the things that keeps the hobby in motion and fun.
Tom
stevend wrote:.Actually, it was posters EIS2-Earl and Warburton who grasped the intent from the first paragraph of my post:What can be done to prevent retailers who deliberately inflate the actual manufacturer's selling price, simply to mislead consumers into thinking that their selling price is considerably less?I can't argue that a retailer can charge whatever the traffic will bare for any item that he/she/it/they/them sells.My objection is misrepresenting what the manufacturer has stated is the MSRP (i.e. Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price)If the "Sugg. Retail $351.95 had not been printed in the ad, I would have no objection as to what they were charging.My question to them is, exactly where did they obtain the information for the Polar Express Sugg. Retail $351.95If I were Lionel, and had become aware that a retailer was inflating the MSRP, I would take some form of action to prevent it.The retailer can charge whatever they choose, just as long as they do not misrepresent the MSRP..
.
Actually, it was posters EIS2-Earl and Warburton who grasped the intent from the first paragraph of my post:
What can be done to prevent retailers who deliberately inflate the actual manufacturer's selling price, simply to mislead consumers into thinking that their selling price is considerably less?
I can't argue that a retailer can charge whatever the traffic will bare for any item that he/she/it/they/them sells.
My objection is misrepresenting what the manufacturer has stated is the MSRP (i.e. Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price)
If the "Sugg. Retail $351.95 had not been printed in the ad, I would have no objection as to what they were charging.
My question to them is, exactly where did they obtain the information for the Polar Express Sugg. Retail $351.95
If I were Lionel, and had become aware that a retailer was inflating the MSRP, I would take some form of action to prevent it.
The retailer can charge whatever they choose, just as long as they do not misrepresent the MSRP.
I see two choices here:
1. The guy is a cheat and this is just one symptom, so don't buy from him. If I think someone is fundamentally dishonest, then I don't do business with them.
2. For some reason, other than trying to cheat you, the guy has a "suggested retail", msrp, whatever that is different from what you think it should be. But since his price is the one he actually sells at, you just ignore the other and buy it if you like his price or not if you don't.
Enjoy
Paul
stevend wrote: I can't argue that a retailer can charge whatever the traffic will bare for any item that he/she/it/they/them sells.My objection is misrepresenting what the manufacturer has stated is the MSRP (i.e. Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price)If the "Sugg. Retail $351.95 had not been printed in the ad, I would have no objection as to what they were charging.My question to them is, exactly where did they obtain the information for the Polar Express Sugg. Retail $351.95If I were Lionel, and had become aware that a retailer was inflating the MSRP, I would take some form of action to prevent it.The retailer can charge whatever they choose, just as long as they do not misrepresent the MSRP.
We get your point. However, as I said in my first post, the dealer stated "Suggested Retail", not "Manfacturers Suggested Retail Price". That's his loophole. He left out "Manufacturer" so legally, there is nothing Lionel can do. Technically, he is not misrepresenting them. Our free enterprise laws prevent Lionel from taking any action.
I a guy pays $350 for a $250 train and has a lot of fun with it, I don't see what the big deal is. I'm not defending this dealer but I see no reason to get worked up over it. I can think of a looooot of worthless ways people blow money and nobody seems to give a hoot.
3railguy wrote:There is not a lot of profit margin with O gauge trains. Some dealers will put a 40% markup over their wholesale price which is common with other goods. With O gauge trains, 40% over wholesale can leave a pretty substancial sticker price. Many dealers will put a high sticker price on O gauge trains and they just sit there gathering dust. They don't care. They just continue moving product such as model car kits, paints, or RC car gear that brings them the profit margin they need (or want). lionroar88 wroteI love this arguement... if there wasn't much mark up then they wouldn't be in business. Do you think the big online houses don't make money on their pre-orders and close-outs? Come on!
3railguy wrote:There is not a lot of profit margin with O gauge trains. Some dealers will put a 40% markup over their wholesale price which is common with other goods. With O gauge trains, 40% over wholesale can leave a pretty substancial sticker price. Many dealers will put a high sticker price on O gauge trains and they just sit there gathering dust. They don't care. They just continue moving product such as model car kits, paints, or RC car gear that brings them the profit margin they need (or want).
lionroar88 wroteI love this arguement... if there wasn't much mark up then they wouldn't be in business. Do you think the big online houses don't make money on their pre-orders and close-outs? Come on!
Dude.......I'm just passing on the thinking of some dealers. Things I have been told by them. The mom and pop corner LHS in particular. It pretty much explains why they have a small selection of overpriced, dated stock. They won't move and replenish it for any less and will let it sit there until the cows come home. What they pay their wholesaler is not much less than what internet dealers charge us because internet dealers buy in large volume and get much larger discounts than the corner LHS. The same could be true for the internet dealer posted here.
No reason for people to get worked up over this. If people are willing to pay it, so be it. If not, so be it. It's our free enterprise system. The same system that allows to quit our job because someone is willing to pay us more.
jaabat wrote: ATSJer wrote: jaabat wrote: He does stuff like that since I took him to school with a Lionel 2056 Hudson and 2400 series coaches. How did you "take him to school"?I bought the loco and 2046W tender for $29.00 and the passenger cars for $75. The loco and tender are Excellent plus grade and work fine now. When I bought them from the Weasel, they were in need of a cleaning and didn't run. The loco and set of 4 cars was a one-year only set and is considered to be a bit "rare". A 2056, 2046W, 2421, 2422, 2423, 2429 comprises the set.Jim
ATSJer wrote: jaabat wrote: He does stuff like that since I took him to school with a Lionel 2056 Hudson and 2400 series coaches. How did you "take him to school"?
jaabat wrote: He does stuff like that since I took him to school with a Lionel 2056 Hudson and 2400 series coaches.
How did you "take him to school"?
I bought the loco and 2046W tender for $29.00 and the passenger cars for $75. The loco and tender are Excellent plus grade and work fine now. When I bought them from the Weasel, they were in need of a cleaning and didn't run. The loco and set of 4 cars was a one-year only set and is considered to be a bit "rare". A 2056, 2046W, 2421, 2422, 2423, 2429 comprises the set.
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
3railguy wrote:Many dealers will put a high sticker price on O gauge trains and they just sit there gathering dust. They don't care. They just continue moving product such as model car kits, paints, or RC car gear that brings them the profit margin they need (or want).
Right, the LHS around me doesn't make his money off the big ticket items, instead its all the small stuff that people don't want to order online. Heck my LHS has several big money locomotives just sitting on the self in the same place they have been for months. As for me, my LHS is 45 to 50 minutes away from the homestead, it is often faster and cheaper ($2.50 per gallon here) for me to order something online and have it delivered than it is to fit in a trip to the LHS. And before we bash the online industry too much, lets remember that mail order was the online not too many years ago and that bi-passed the LHS too. If the LHS is going to survive they are going to have to adapt to an ever changing environment just like everyone else; because they cannot assume that people are just going to continue to walk through the doors because they are the only place in town. Not to mention that its hard to convince yourself into paying $289 for something when you can get it delievered for $217; or $60 when you can get it for $37 (real life scenarios).
Brent
"I don't know how they stay in business, but I guess there are enough folks in the hobby who have yet to fully turn to the internet as their source for train supplies. Shame on them, because they are missing all the deals."
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Well, don't worry much about it. The day will come--sooner rather than later--when there will be precious few hobby shops in this nation and nearly everyone will have to buy mail order or on line. That will be real nice when you need a few more track pins, some scenery items, a bottle of paint, a couple of sections of track, and the like. Add in postage and handling, and you'll be doing no better than you are shopping at the local hobby shop.
But people will have to learn this the hard way, I suppose, since so many seem to feel that their local dealers are "robbing" them by seeking to make a profit on things they sell.
You'll know things have reached the point of no return when places like Trainworld or the other biggies begin to close their doors. I see that Allied Trains--out in California--is going belly-up, and it's one of the largest and nicest train stores in the nation (all scales). The writing is on the wall, as the old saying goes.
We have made our bed, now we must sleep in it (to quote another old saying).
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