John, I'm not so sure about what you say. Atlas has been around for a long time, but this direction into traditionalally sized 3-rail trains (via the Industrial Rail tooling) is a new one for them. As a long time reader of the Model Railroader, there is no shortage of current modern roads on both N and HO scale trains, including those from Atlas. Modern roads are everywhere.
I suspect Atlas may be trying a quality/price comparision course since so many of their IR issues are in roads and paint schemes that have been recently released by Lionel. I'm sure UMD also had a feel for what would sell, and they included some modern roads into their releases... the very first company to ever release some of those roads on trains of that size range.
As a one time shop owner, I can also say that steam sets are popular with beginners. Sure, kids like all the action of a steamer. But part of that reason is that (at least from Lionel) steam sets are the most reasonably priced. The NYC and PRR Flyer sets have been pushed by Lionel for over a decade. Not only do that have attractive lists, but the packaging clearly promotes the solid die-cast construction of the loco which has appeal to many parents, especially mothers who may likely be controlling the purse strings. Lionel diesel sets in the same price range have been sorry affairs with mostly the all plastic single motored RS-3 diesel. Even the slightly more expensive sets like the Chessie, Southern, Alaska, and Santa Fe GP-38 diesel ses still have plastic truck sides and fuel tanks.
Also from my own observations as well as conversations with dealer friends, I know a good number of starter sets are sold to grandfathers who buy their grandson his first train set. I've also read this scenario a good many times on the train forums. That grandfather is buying a train set that appeals to his memories of steam in roads he remembers... which I think is part of the marketing approach. It just does little to kindle long term interest in trains. Again, I know for a fact from doing as many shows as I have, that diesels in current roads have immense appeal to kids who do recognize the colors and modern logos. Kids never asked me to run the Pennsy or NYC... but they did/do get excited when I ran Conrail and Nofolk Southern, two roads both ignored on starter train sets.
The one and only single newly tooled modern car for the 027 market in the past decade has been the Lionel Waffle Box Car. And actually it's been more than a decade, since it was introduced in 1995. It's not that 027 operators don't want some new products in current roads... it's just we don't complain as loudly as the scale operators or get in the faces of the company reps at YORK as the scale operators do. Of course, we don't spend the large amounts of dollars on single train purchases either. But don't kid yourself... these new scale train items hardly pay for their own investment. Every single train company has admitted publically that profits on these newly tooled scale items are marginal at the very best because of the high developement costs. Beleive me, the sales of traditionally sized trains (from long used tooling) are absolutely helping to support the development on the scale side of the catalogs. The scale guys may despise 027, but they can't live without us... they certainly wouldn't have their trains without us.
As far as modern train types, as an 027 operator, I do not expect nor want scale length cars. But is it possible to replicate modern car types on 027 sized cars.... YOU BET IT IS! I've build and designed my own coil cars, spine cars, bath tub hoppers and they run and look good on 027 curves. I've built my own Dash-8, RS-3, GP-9 and U36B all shortned in height and length. Folks see my RS-3 and can tell it is smaller. Yet even seasoned scale guys tell me I did a good job with the shrinking down of the loco.
Even MTH Railking didn't do a very good job on their compressing of their early releases. You cannot use a scale ruler on compression... you have to go for a "feel." The later Railking (before they went scale) SD45 and SD90MAC are the very best looking and compressed down of all the MTH Railking loco releases. Especially that SD90MAC, which I think they did an outstanding job with shrinking down! Now, if they'd only make it without all the MTH electronics at a reasonable list (when the SD90MAC went to Rugged Rails as horn only, the list price got raised $30 and many got cancelled).
027 operators are not rivet counters. We're far more willing to live with compromises. As with being an artist who paints in water colors, you don't create an exact precise visual, but rather create an impression of something. I still find it impressive how MARX took folded sheet metal non-scale shortened cars (even of those days prototypes) and though good lithography still created trains that appeared to have detail and very effectively mimiced the real thing.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
My favorite schemes for the Industrial Rail Line expansion pack sets:
SOO LINE 1960's-1970's Colormark Schemes
1965 Plug-Door Boxcar
1966-1968 Aluminum Body Covered Hopper with Blue & Yellow Graphics.
Bulkhead Flat Car
CP RAIL 1960's-1970's Multimark Schemes
Plug-Door Boxcar with a Green Body
Covered Hopper with a Black Body and Red & White Multimark Logo.
Chicago & NorthWestern 1980's Zito Era Safety Yellow Scheme
Plug-Door Boxcar
Covered Hopper
Those are the schemes and time period I would choose for the Industrial Rail Line. Most of those cars lasted up to 2000.
Andrew Falconer
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Kansas City Southern will get new freight cars, Covered Hoppers and Coil Cars, with a new Heritage Based paint scheme on March 22, 2007. This new KCS scheme could be applied to the Industrial Rail Covered Hopper.
Andrew
Hi guys,
I have been following this discussion and would like to add my . I'm sure you are aware that Atlas has been in the train business a long time, more than 50 years I think. Anyway I believe that have a great feel for the market and am sure they are making what they know will sell, not what might sell. As for coming out with a steamer, that is what sells in starter sets, I've been told that by LHS owners, even when they try to convince parents that the diesels run better and are more trouble free, they still want steamers. Remember that the majority of these sets are bought by non train people. Wouldn't you have a problem reducing modern cars enough to run reasonably well on 027 track? Remember they are a lot bigger than the 40s & 50s prototype cars now seen on 027 lines. 65' gondolas, 85' container cars, 17,000 gal tank cars & 60' high cubes would all look really weird on 027 track, yet this is what the modern lines run.
Well,
As for myslef I admire Atlas' innovation, even if they are imitating Lionel. I hope they will soon have sets with their 4-4-2 and 3 or 4 freight cars plus a caboose with their track system and transformer.
Of course, I wouldn't buy one as I am a stickler for Lionel and Williams Tubular track with Lionel switches and I want to buy a new Lionel ZW to complement my 2 CW80's.
However, I do plan to buy the Atlantic, as well as sevral of their Industrial Rail freight cars. Now, if they do make sets and then make expansion packs with 3 cars and track, then I'd have to say something about orginality. But as for now, I think they are doing fine.
Cheese
Nick! :)
Here is what I was wondering about concerning modern road paint schemes on the Industrial Rail open-top two-bay hopper and Covered 4-Bay Hopper.
Would this selection of roads and scheme be the most appealing to a younger audience.
Open-top, Two-Bay Hopper:
BNSF 2005 Aluminum Body with Orange & Black Graphics
Union Pacific Aluminum Body with Yellow & Black Markings, plus UP shield.
CSX Aluminum Body with Yellow & Black Graphics.
Norfolk Southern Aluminum Body with Black & White Markings.
Covered 4-Bay Hoppers
IC/CN 2005 Oxide Red Body. White CN / IC Markings, plus the www.cn.ca web address.
CNW/UP 2004 Gray Body. Black Graphics. UNION PACIFIC BUILDING AMERICA slogan & logo.
CSXT/Family Lines Yellow-Beige Body. Black The Family Lines System Graphics. CSXT reporting marks and number patch rectangle.
CR/Penn Central Jade Green Body. White Markings. CR Reporting Marks and Road Number patch rectangle.
Those are some of the most interesting paint scheme versions and they cover most regions.
There is a Soo Line Plug-Door Boxcar built in 1965 with the Colormark Scheme. Soo Line Plug-Door Boxcars with the similar scheme are still around. Here is what it looks like based on a drawing on the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society website www.sooline.org .
That is a great scheme for the Industrial Rail Plug-Door Boxcar.
BrianelO27: being an O27 guy myself I have to commend you for your unrelenting pressure on companies to market stuff that appeals to us!
Thank you for being the voice of O27!!
- walt
brianel027 wrote: For me, once again I'm still scratching my head why Atlas decides to issue some items that are nearly the exact same cars that Lionel has issued with not a single current road name item in the group: the inclusion of modern roads was one of the BIG things I liked about the original UMD Industrial Rail products. And the new Atlas track system once again has a 36 inch curve (40 inch with roadbed) instead of doing something innovative like offering a tighter radius curve.
The cars look to be from old Industrial Rail tooling from what I can tell and will likely have better graphics. But I never paid close attention to Industrial Rail. I could be wrong I dunno.
I think Atlas chose 036 as a baseline diameter because today's rubber band wheel engines have trouble gripping 027 curves like magnetraction engines did. Kids are known to send trains sailing for the concrete on 027 curves when running at any kind of speed. If demand warrants, I'm sure Atlas will add 027 to their track line. The difference between it and Fastrack is the T rail profile.
Roadnames are a personal matter really and there appears to be a lot of handsome east coast fallen flag roads announced. The Pennsy Merchandise Service car looks sharp. You don't see many rich colors like Atlas is offering in the Lionel starter variety. Lionel's are often single tone unpainted plastic.
The Atlantic looks sharp to me too and has some American Flyer flavor to it. It will likely have a quality drive compareable to their more expensive scale sized engines.
I am very pleased to see Atlas expand the Industrial Rails line. The 4-4-2 looks intriguing.
Brian, I like the older road names but I do see your point. When I was just starting out in HO as a teenager, I took a Mantua Mikado and repainted it, adding some Walthers Seaboard Coast Line decals. Sure, I knew even then that the SCL didn't ever have steam although the predecessor Seaboard Airline and Atlantic Coast Line railroads certainly did. I just wanted an engine with a roadname that I saw all the time (this was about 1972 in Jacksonville, Florida). I was, indeed, more familiar with and drawn to the railroads of the day.
Now, I am happy with the older roads (many that were "current" when I was growing up) such as the Pennsy, NYC, Erie-Lackawanna, et. al. I especially like to try and find southern lines (nearly as hard to find as the modern roads) such as GM&O, Southern, L&N, et. al. Like you, I find that often my only recourse is to repaint.
What about a smoke unit in an ALCo Diesel-Electric Locomotive. They were big smokers.
Doug, valid point taken... but you're talking about trolley's too which have long disappeared from most folks daily lives.
But it depends on taget audience too. Consider that in the last years, MARX made starter steam sets in Penn Central. Hardly prototypical, but with a very recognizable graphic to kids of that time. Likewise, I have a custom painted Lionel 4-4-2 steamer with the modern Norfolk Southern logo on the tender. Again, not prototypical. But as a black steam engine, sure seems to me to be a contender for the NS logo. And frankly, it amazes me when kids get all excited about seeing that one. Not only are there the visuals of the puffing smoke and the steam engine drive, but they do recognize the NS logo on that black background... even if this time it's on a steam engine tender.
I've said it before, but after many years of displays, I never once witnessed the visual and audiable excitement from the PRR or NYC on a steam engine tender like I did with the NS logo. Same obvviously goes for diesels. So while we older folks might not get as wound up over AMTRAK logos being on a trolley, the situation might be reversed with younger folks.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
An injection mold for the modern boxcars with one peice bodies with two doors and all the details are molded in is a lot less expensive to mill than the Atlas O Scale Master Series. The frame for the boxcars would be reused from the other cars.
Alright, I guess the hoppers are hoppers and they can just get new paint schemes. Even a 1960's paint scheme is new for these hopper. When will they run more 1980's and 1990's graphics?
The fishbelly gondolas have been around for a while and they can stay. What about a fishbelly gondola in the 1990's Illinois Central, Burlington Northern Santa Fe, MP/UP, and Norfolk Southern Schemes?
Tank Cars are much more sleek since the 1970's and that is a significant change that has to be accounted for with a new model.
There still is the issue of the proportionally and detail level matching 1980-1995 built four-axle locomotive. Would Jim Weaver let Lionel and Williams have all of the market on those? He would have to come up with at least one recent era model.
Andrew, thanks for your list and your line of thinking. While I could be inclined to agree with you, I also recognize there are assooicatiated tooling costs for any new item. Sometimes, it's just a lack of thinking.... when UMD first tooled up their box car, for example, instead of doing a copy of a 6464 type, they could have left off the roofwalk and shortened all the side ladders to create a more modern appearing box car. And instead of doing a copy of the Lionel 2-bay hopper, they could have made that into a shorter bath-tub type hopper.
But I truly believe we traditional 027 operators are amoung the easiest-to-please customers the train comapnies have. We already have accepted the limitations of 027 track and are happy to have decent looking and running products that negotiate our curves and clear the switches.
Remember when the "BEEP" first came out? There were plenty of voices condemning it as not being prototypical enough. Little did those guys know this was exactly the type of product the hobby needs. Sure, it ain't prototypical BUT it looks good enough to be real! The BEEP mimics the appearance of a real train, without being modeled after a specific model type - and that's good enough for me. And obviously good enough for others because it is selling so well.
Or as another train of thought, it was amazing how MARX in their day could take short folded tin cars, and by means of good lithography, make those short little tin trains look like the real thing. When Conrail took over the NE railroads, they gradually weened out the shorter train cars on the thinking that longer train cars could carry more product and thus make more money for the same amount of labor/handling expense. But prototypically correct large long train cars are not going to clear our 027 curves or switches. Therefore I think many 027 operators have learned to accept some compromises. Tooling and die costs are one thing though and paint masks are another.
Paint masks are an insignificant cost when compared to new product tooling. I have several UMD Industrial Rail Norfolk Southern box cars. As to my knowledge, NS never had any black box cars - but they look good enough to be real. And it is a current road. Same goes for the UMD Industrial Rail BNSF cars, which have paint schemes more like locomotives than freight cars. But I have a couple each of those cars too. It was just plain nice to have a company put some current road names on an 027 product. And at that point, no one else had done it in some time. I'm haapy to simple have some shorter cars in current roads. And on that thought, I've made my own spine cars from broken Lionel log dump car frames. I make my own coil cars from UMD flat cars and my own bath-tub hoppers out of 2-bay short Lionel hoppers by cutting off the bottom of the car, rebuilding a new bottom and then giving the car a modern appearing paint scheme.
And when the average Joe or a bunch of kids see my layout, they may not know prototype, but they sure do recognize those current roads and often remark "there's one we saw just the other day."
The Industrial Rail Sets just announced are based on the time period of 1940-1960. People who clearly remember that time period are now at least 55 years old.
What the future Industrial Rail line releases might need to concentrate upon is equipment built the 1970-1990 time frame and post-1990 paint schemes just to catch up with Lionel's Traditional O Gauge line.
I have listed the locos and cars in the previous post, but I forgot to put a time frame on them.
It is not a lot, but they are very distinct choices.
To truly produce a modern freight train, the Industrial Rail Line needs an infusion of modern body styles with traditionally proportioned O-27 versions of these items.
General Electric 40B-8 Locomotive
GM-EMD GP50/GP60 Locomotive
ACF Center Flow 4600 Cubic Foot Capacity 3-Bay Covered Hopper
Fruit Growers Express 50' Insulated Box Car & Refrigerator Car
Pacific Car and Foundry Plate C 50' Exterior Post Box Car
Evans/Thrall Mill Gondola
ACF 17,600 Tank Car
Trinity/Johnstown Rapid Discharge Coal Hopper
That would cover the major modern variations of freight cars, but it must be done with durable molded in details and in mostly S Scale proportions to operate on O-27 Curves.
I notice that while they did not do modern road names, some paint scheme variations were shown that have not yet appeared on similar cars by Lionel, Williams, and MTH Rugged Rails.
For Jim Weaver and company to do modern road names the Industrial Rail Line might have to include something like a GP15T/GP15-1 in the traditional proportions and detail level of the rest of the Industrial Rail product line.
Brianel,
Great minds think and do alike I was just on Atlas' site too and notice these things. Just posted a thread. Sorry if I stepped on your toes on this one. did see your post.
mike s.
Once in a while I stroll around the company websites to see what's new. Atlas Industrial Rail has a bunch of new product announcements: steam engine, transformers, train sets, add-on packs and a new track system. Some of these items bear a striking resemblance to some of Lionel's products, especially the concept of the add-on packs.
For me, once again I'm still scratching my head why Atlas decides to issue some items that are nearly the exact same cars that Lionel has issued with not a single current road name item in the group: the inclusion of modern roads was one of the BIG things I liked about the original UMD Industrial Rail products. And the new Atlas track system once again has a 36 inch curve (40 inch with roadbed) instead of doing something innovative like offering a tighter radius curve.
Well, nonetheless these are worthy product announcements and shows another company is seeing the light in making decent quality affordable non-scale/traditionally sized starter products. Though I would have preferred to see a shortened scaled down modern type diesel for the first locomotive, the new Atlantic steam does look nice for the price. As for me, I wrote Atlas and will hold off any purchases until I finally see something in CSX, Conrail, NS, BNSF, KCS, CPR, or CN that I'd actually like to buy instead of having to repaint, kitbash and make them myself.... I can buy used beaters for that instead of brand new items.
Here's the link: judge for yourselves.....
http://www.atlaso.com/industrialrail.htm
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