brianel027 wrote:...I know folks on this forum can disagree too, but not once here on this forum have I experienced the ignorance and intolerance towards 027 "toy train" products that I have experienced on the OGR forum. You mention train sets over there and some worry that toy train guys are taking over "their" forum or that the popularity of Polar Express will divert less money being spent on more high end scale products. How selfish and ridiculous! I realize comments like those are from individuals, but those feelings seem to be much more widespread on the other forum...
...I know folks on this forum can disagree too, but not once here on this forum have I experienced the ignorance and intolerance towards 027 "toy train" products that I have experienced on the OGR forum. You mention train sets over there and some worry that toy train guys are taking over "their" forum or that the popularity of Polar Express will divert less money being spent on more high end scale products. How selfish and ridiculous! I realize comments like those are from individuals, but those feelings seem to be much more widespread on the other forum...
Brian,
Ditto! Check out any of my posts on OGR. My signature line there is - "Enjoying Classic Toy Trains on the Jumijo RR"
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
I think the current Lionel catalog suggests that Brian is correct and Lionel is looking at the beginners/simpler/lower cost part of the spectrum, with quite a few locos that retail for $100 or less in the shops, some almost as low in price as RMT's stuff.
It seems to me the hobby benefits from and the industry grows with proper attention to the various niches of interest and budgets of the consumer. Focusing exclusively on the high tech, high cost hi-rail end or introductory sets is not in Lionel's best interest, and they aren't doing that. I do think they should seriously reconsider advertising and sending products for review to CTT as it is the most professional and widely read print media in the three rail hobby.
Neil and Frank have both made good points. Neil, while I agree with your premise that advertising in a periodical with a larger circulation makes more sense, I agree with Frank that Lionel is going after a target audience here. In all the survey results I have seen and read Lionel sells far more trains than MTH. But MTH buyers are a very devoted group. And MTH has constantly upped the ante on their high end products.... notice that they have slowly dropped (or put much less emphasis on) non-scale traditionally sized products. One could wonder does the Rugged Rails line even still exist?
Remember when DCS was introduced with bugs... it was the active observations and participation from the OGR forum that helped them solve many of those problems and MTH acknowledged the help from members of that forum.
So my guess is that Lionel is promoting these higher end products to the audience they believe buys these products. Not that readers of CTT or participants on this forum aren't into scale high-end trains... I just believe even though OGR is a smaller circulation, it appeals to a higher percentage of high end buyers. Clyde Coil must believe the same, as most of his audience addressed observations (however accurate or inaccurate) are addressed to the OGR forum, where high-end and hi-tech trains seem to be discussed more frequently and more passionately.
I know folks on this forum can disagree too, but not once here on this forum have I experienced the ignorance and intolerance towards 027 "toy train" products that I have experienced on the OGR forum. You mention train sets over there and some worry that toy train guys are taking over "their" forum or that the popularity of Polar Express will divert less money being spent on more high end scale products. How selfish and ridiculous! I realize comments like those are from individuals, but those feelings seem to be much more widespread on the other forum.
I like Frank, could care less about Legacy and I think it's an utter waste of development time and money. As far as Clyde Coil saying Legacy will revolutionize the hobby, I think he's totally wrong. The entire RMT product line will do more to revolutionize the hobby right now than Legacy ever will.
High end products have a place in the hobby as they always have... Lionel introduced the first scale Hudson during the Great Depression. It's also no secret that the core audience of the 3-rail hobby is a small, already older and rapidly aging group that will get a lot smaller in the next decade. Kelly Shaw of CTT was just quoted in the press as saying the average age of their subscriber is 59!!
I think had Clyde Coil been around during the Depression, he would have been saying that first scale Hudson was the best dang train ever made and would revolutionize the hobby. Funny, but it was the low end Mickey Mouse wind-up train and the mid-level M10000 that did more to financially help Lionel during the Depression than the Hudson ever did... history often repeats itself. The Hudson was made for prestige, but the Mickey wind-up and M10000 were made for practicality and profits.
If I were at Lionel, I'd be looking more at what RMT is doing over what MTH is doing. Ready Made Toys has the right idea... they get my award for the best train company of 2006 and are well on their way to getting my award a second time for 2007. This hobby needs far more practical, reliable and affordable technology and products if it is going to expand. And RMT advertises in CTT.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Bob Keller
Paul, the ad in question is in the April/May issue of OGRR that just arrived.
Bob, thanks for the response to my inquiry.
Neil,
I would think Lionel would be advertising in CTT, however, maybe Frank has a point. I subscribe to both CTT and OGR and see both in most book stores I visit. If Jerry Calebrese is serious about getting toy trains back in the mainstream (as witnessed by his campaign to get them into big retailers and in NYC tourist sites) than I would think it is logical to advertise extensively in all magazines.
MTH knows the power of advertising and has been agressive in marketing since its inception. Take a look at the last 4-5 years worth of CTT magazines. You will notice MTH products and reviews more than any other brand, and MTH products are featured with large pictures in the beginning section while other brands' pictures are smaller. Lionel has been almost absent during this period. MTH also seems to advertise in each issue of CTT (I think) while Lionel has not.
Paul
as nice as the Big Boy, BiPolars and Hiawatha are - none of them would have the slightest chance of being able to navigate my layout. Small space, smaller diameter curves - I would imagine the bulk of the CTT audience are stuck with smaller curves that just won't accommodate the newest offerings.
On the other hand, being in teh advertising business, we build campaigns to the audience. In that regard, building a more CTT friendly ad is the solution.
Unfortunately, Legacy advertising probably has appeal to a larger percentage of the audience subscribing to the other magazine. CTT probably has a larger percentage of "traditionalists", like myself, to whom Legacy doesn't mean a hill of beans.
Likewise, many of the new offerings from most of the manufacturers don't always make sense for the "toy train" sector. Many of the more toy train crowd runs smaller curves, which will not handle the larger engines requiring o54 and o72.
Just the way it is, or at least appears to be.
" Do you think Lionel "Legacy" ads would appeal to those who ONLY read CTT?"
Not at all. I think there is a broad overlap in subscribers/readers to both magazines (like me for example). I'm just somewhat surprised that there have now been three two page spreads in the other magazine and nothing in CTT, which is (1) more oriented towards the Lionel consumer, IMO and (2) well, you know ;).
Some of your comments have me confused. At times, I see comments on this forum that the guys on the OGR forum are only concerned with buying the "latest/greatest/most expensive". That's what Lionel is trying to sell with their ad money.
Many of us read both magazines...even participate on both forums. Do you think Lionel "Legacy" ads would appeal to those who ONLY read CTT?
"But only one carries the Imprimatur."
Somehow I don't think imprimateur counts nearly as much as advertising costs, personal connections or preferences.
Anyhow it's a simple question directed primarily at the CTT moderator(s) and secondarily at discussion.
Can we expect Lionel advertising to return to CTT anytime soon. One way or the other I'll know the answer over the next six months , but I'm curious.
I subscribe to both magazines, but strongly prefer CTT and its editorial orientation and approach.
Allan Miller wrote: My guess is that most well-informed O gauge enthusiasts read both publications--and more--on a regular or fairly regular basis,
My guess is that most well-informed O gauge enthusiasts read both publications--and more--on a regular or fairly regular basis,
But only one carries the Imprimatur.
Perhaps it's just a matter of spreading out their advertising dollars--advertising in one issue of the other publication and on alternate months, or with alternate issues, advertising in the other.
Or it could be a matter of the rates charged, making one a more attractive venue than the other.
And there may be other reasons, as well. My guess is that most well-informed O gauge enthusiasts read both publications--and more--on a regular or fairly regular basis, so I suspect that the cross-over readership gains attention for the ads no matter where they may appear.
I noticed that Lionel advertising recently made a major reappearance in another magazine. Can we expect Lionel ads again anytime soon in CTT?
CTT is much more Lionel oriented, and toy train oriented than other commercial print media, and I suspect most Lionel collectors and operators prefer CTT. Thus it's been a little surprising to see Legacy/TMCCII ads in another periodical, and now a two page spread that's very impressive, with the JLC loco, the Milwaukee Road locos and Legacy. Personally, I would be disappointed to see Lionel supporting one magazine and not the other.
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