Trains.com

Who says our third rail isn't prototypical

3751 views
24 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: 15 mi east of Cleveland
  • 2,072 posts
Posted by 1688torpedo on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 7:10 PM
 Doug M-  Those Tracks are not Tubular! How is Frank expected to run his #60 Trolley on them?Wink [;)]Clown [:o)]Clown [:o)]Clown [:o)] Dave- I like your photo's also. That CSX Track with the third rail looks like Atlas third rail track.Smile [:)] Take Care all.
Keith Woodworth........Seat Belts save lives,Please drive safely.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 9:52 AM

Depending on how you read between the lines, the only future 3 rail electification had was with JLC and other toy train manufacturers.  Lionel didn't impliment 3 rail track until 1906 when production of 2 rail, 2 7/8" equipment ended and the new Standard Gauge was adopted. 

Bruce Webster

  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Southington, CT
  • 1,326 posts
Posted by DMUinCT on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 9:30 AM

The scoop.

 "Center Third Rail" was the wave of the future in 1900 when J. Lionel Cowen looked to mass produce electric "Model Trains".

The New Haven Railroad, then under the control of J. P. Morgan, dreamed of using DC Electric power from Boston to New York.  A feeder line outside of Boston (Nantasket Beach) was electrified in 1896 using a center 3rd rail and Interurban passenger cars. It worked fine.

The next move was to try a longer faster line.  Third rail was installed from Hartford CT south to New Britain, then east to Berlin and west along the old New York & New England main line to Bristol.  A total of 32 route miles were in operation.  In 1905, the state of Connecticut outlawed the center 3rd rail and ended the noble experiment.  By now the New Haven was already looking to the 11,000 volt AC system of overhead wires invisioned by George Westinghouse and Nikola Tesla as the solution to long distance power transmission.  That installation is still in service today by Amtrak.

Lionel WAS in step with his times!

Don U. TCA 73-5735

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 9:10 AM
But still in his future.  His first (2 7/8-inch gauge) trains used only two rails.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: Southington, CT
  • 1,326 posts
Posted by DMUinCT on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 8:52 AM
"Third Rail" was the wave of the future in 1900 when J. Lionel Cowen looked to mass produce "Model Trains"

Don U. TCA 73-5735

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • 6,434 posts
Posted by FJ and G on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 6:04 AM
  • Member since
    August 2003
  • 6,434 posts
Posted by FJ and G on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 5:44 AM

Also, lots of dual gauge RRs in the world; this one is Japan:

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • 6,434 posts
Posted by FJ and G on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 5:40 AM

Here's the only 3-rail freight only RR that ever existed. Out in Calif. Standard gauge and 2' gauge combo.

 

 

Below is undoctored photo I took on CSX at my station stop in Crystal City, VA

 

 

(apparently, they darkened the center rail)Big Smile [:D]

 

Great photo, btw, Doug!!!! 

  • Member since
    November 2006
  • 18 posts
Posted by Richard Bjorkman on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 5:56 PM
 cnw1995 wrote:

Apparently a New Haven RR owned interurban streetcar line back in 1900 had the first electrically experimental true 3 rail track with a center powered, exposed 3rd rail..."  Can you imagine how dangerous this was?

That occurred in Eastern Massachusetts, a few miles from where I live (although the trackage was long gone by the time I was born). From what I recall reading, a number of small animals were electrocuted along the track. Then one night, someone tried taking a shortcut by walking down the track and was electrocuted. There was a well-deserved public outcry, and the live center rail was removed. However, the experiment proved to the New Haven that third-rail electric power was feasible as long as better safety measures were in place.

Richard Bjorkman

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Bawlmer Hon
  • 314 posts
Posted by choochin3 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 4:44 PM

That 3rd rail looks like a guide channel for a cable car to me.

 

Carl T.

I'm out Choochin!
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 4:38 PM

Here's another for the books.  While the Volks Electric Railway wasn't initially 3 rail ( third rail was installed in 1886 ) it was a later modification that was better suited rather than use 2 power rails with wooden insulated wheels.  The center rail is offset to one side but this is definitely live exposed rail, the mainline fenced in to keep pedestrians from becoming crispy critters.

http://www.volkselectricrailway.co.uk/

Bruce Webster

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • 1,991 posts
Posted by Frank53 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 2:37 PM

 cnw1995 wrote:
Wow, really? How do they keep patrons (or dogs or whatnot) from being electrocuted?

They're using it for population control.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 2:36 PM
Only the section under the train is turned on.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Crystal Lake, IL
  • 8,059 posts
Posted by cnw1995 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 2:35 PM
Wow, really? How do they keep patrons (or dogs or whatnot) from being electrocuted?

Frank, he has been very encouraging to me as well. Wouldn't that be the layout to see in person?

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 2:33 PM
Exposed center third rail is now being used for streetcars in Bordeaux.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • 1,991 posts
Posted by Frank53 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 1:53 PM
 cnw1995 wrote:

Joe Frank is one of the greatest subway modellers on earth - how's that for hyperbole.

I stumbled upon Joe elsewhere and viewing the work he had done made me re-assess what I was going to do with my humble o-gauge layout. While I realize Joe is from a different planet when it comes to modeling skill, his work got me moving towards trying to build a quasi-relaistic layout. He gave me a lot of encouragement as well.

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Crystal Lake, IL
  • 8,059 posts
Posted by cnw1995 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 1:47 PM

Wow, thanks for sharing that, Frank.

 Joe Frank is one of the greatest subway modellers on earth - how's that for hyperbole.

This paraphrases a little of what he posted about this photo:

"The surface street level tracks are timber shored-up street railway "conduit system" tracks - supported at street level OVER a subway excavation below, to maintain streetcar services.
...the center "slot" rail is for the conduit beneath containing the both + and - current "strap-rails" which the streetcar under-truck "pickup plows" made electrical contact with. The streetcar tracks themselves were NOT energized meaning they were not used to send return current to the powerhouse, as in normal electric railway operation ! 

Apparently a New Haven RR owned interurban streetcar line back in 1900 had the first electrically experimental true 3 rail track with a center powered, exposed 3rd rail..."  Can you imagine how dangerous this was?

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • 1,991 posts
Posted by Frank53 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 1:08 PM

Doug:

There is a run down on that photo posted by Joe Frank on the subway section at the other forum where I post.

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Crystal Lake, IL
  • 8,059 posts
Posted by cnw1995 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 1:02 PM

Very cool, Doug! Is that a Bowser powered Corgi Trolley I see in the distance?

Why.... yes, Jim. Yes it certainly is. Good eyes.


 

Where did you get those life like workers for your layout?  Scenic Express?


Laz, I cannot reveal the source of my laborers as they might get the idea they are worth more than the Company is paying.

 

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Apache Junction, Arizona It's a dry heat!
  • 351 posts
Posted by perry1060 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 11:27 AM

Very nice picture indeed!

 

 

 

 My web site (updated monthly)

http://home.mchsi.com/~ironmaster1960/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

Enjoy the hobby Perry
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 11:17 AM
 cnw1995 wrote:

I found this evocative photo on another forum - early last cen. NYC.  Isn't it cool? Certainly looks like the latest trolley line construction on my layout. Wink [;)]



Ahhhhhhh.... They don't build 'em like they used to...
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Middle o' Nowhere, MO
  • 1,108 posts
Posted by palallin on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 11:09 AM
Look at the size of that rail:  that's got to scale out at the size of O gauge tubular, maybe bigger.
  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Millersburg, Pa.
  • 7,607 posts
Posted by laz 57 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 10:57 AM
 cnw1995 wrote:

I found this evocative photo on another forum - early last cen. NYC.  Isn't it cool? Certainly looks like the latest trolley line construction on my layout. Wink [;)]

Where did you get those life like workers for your layout?  Scenic Express?Wink [;)]

Cool pic DOUG.

laz57

  There's a race of men that don't fit in, A race that can't stay still; Robert Service. TCA 03-55991
  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: New England
  • 6,241 posts
Posted by Jumijo on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 10:53 AM

Very cool, Doug! Is that a Bowser powered Corgi Trolley I see in the distance?

Jim 

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Crystal Lake, IL
  • 8,059 posts
Who says our third rail isn't prototypical
Posted by cnw1995 on Tuesday, March 6, 2007 10:48 AM

I found this evocative photo on another forum - early last cen. NYC.  Isn't it cool? Certainly looks like the latest trolley line construction on my layout. Wink [;)]

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

FREE EMAIL NEWSLETTER

Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month