Electrical Humming with new set

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

I purchased last week a new Lionmaster Canadian Pacific Diesel Freight set and TMCC.  All work fine and boy is TMCC worth it's weight in gold.

Anyway, what I've noticed is when I power up my track (plug in transformer and move handle up) I hear an electrical humming or buzzing sound until I actually fire up my locomotive.  Once the diesel engines start the humm or buzz goes away.  So my question is, is this just the way it is or is something possibly wrong somewhere?

Thank you for your time.

Jerry

[Anonymous]

Jerry,

         What transformer are you using to power the track?

[Anonymous]

I'm using the Lionel 80watt transformer that came with the kit along with the TMCC Command base and the CAB-1 remote.

[Anonymous]

Jerry,

         The transformer you are using (CW80) is the cause of the humming.  The CW80 puts out a chopped sine wave; most other transformers put out a pure sine wave.  The electronics don't like chopped sine waves, thus the humming.  I am not sure if it is a good idea to keep using the CW80, because I am worried that the chopped sine wave might cause damage to the electronics. We have a few Electrical Engineers among us, maybe they can give us a definite answer.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Jim.  I wonder then why Lionel would include that transformer in the set????

 I'd love to hear more feedback towards this and what action I should take to protect my investment.

 Jerry

[CSXect]

Is the humming from the locomotive or the Transformer?? If it is comming from the locomotive I would say maybe it is the chopped sinewave, if it is comming from the transformer It maybe a loose lamenet on the component inside called transformer. Is this a bad thing, maybe not but sure would be anoying. hope this helps and not confuseing.

[bfskinner]

JTaylor801,

What is the date of manufacture of your transformer? Look on the bottom for a four digit number with or without an alpha prefix. By this time, everyone on this forum should know to ask that question first. The hook up instructions depend on it.

Whatever the number, the CW-80, unlike most transformers, has an internal fan. It starts  slowly and ramps up to a little whine. Could you be hearing that until moving train noise drowns it out? I'm not clear where the "hum" is actually originating.

If your trains reliably go forward, neutral and reverse, and the horn and bell sound when the appropriate buttons are pushed, you probably ought to relax and play with your train.

 

[Anonymous]

I was not aware that the CW-80 could be used with the Cab-1 and Command Base??

[Anonymous]

 

The humming is def. coming from the locomotive.  I tested just this morning.  When I power up my track the cab light and front light on the loco lights up and this humming sound comes from the loco.  Once I grab my CAB-1 controller and startup the locomotive the train sounds start up and I can no longer hear the humming.  It's possible it's still there....but just muffled by the train sounds.  I believe I said earlier that the locomotive works just fine...it runs forward, backward, horn, bell, lights, smoke all function as designed.

The part number of the 80w transformer is 6-14198 and the four digit code on the bottom, right side is 0106 so I assume this was made in Jan. of 2006???

So what do you think?  Do I have an issue? 

Jerry

[Anonymous]

I was not aware that the CW-80 could be used with the Cab-1 and Command Base??

Is this true???  I purchased my set from a local dealer (very reputable from what I've heard) and the salesman walked me through my purchase along with selling me the TMCC and CAB-1 controller. 

Jerry

[bfskinner]

JTaylor801,

Try this: temporarily set aside the Cab-1 and Command Base and simply hook up the CW-80 directly to the track and let us know whether the hum/buzz is still there. O.K.?

If your CW-80 has no alpha prefix in front of the manufacturer's date of Jan 2006, it is probably an older model; i.e., one built prior to the recent major revision. That is not a terrible thing in and of itself, but the newer ones have fixed a major annoyance. The only way to tell for sure what you have  is to use a multimeter set to read Ohms. Follow these steps:

1. Unplug the transformer from the wall.

2. Unhook all wires from all of the posts on the rear of the transformer.

3. Check the resistence between the two red posts, A and B. If it reads zero, you have an older model. If the meter indicates a significant resistance, try checking between the two black posts. (U and U) If that reads zero, you have one of the revised ones.

Note: the determination of whether you have an old or a new one may not immediately solve your hum/buzz problem, but you will certainly need this information in the future. For example, if your transformer should be faulty (which I doubt) and is still under warranty, you would wan't to ask your dealer or Lionel to replace it with a new, revised one. (Be advised that nobody repairs CW-80 transformers; Lionel will replace them under certain circumstances. See the last page of the CW-80 Owners Manual for specifics about the warranty.)

I like the CW-80, but many don't; but I have no experience with TMCC, Cab-1 and all that stuff so I can't comment about compatibility issues. It is true that the CW-80 puts out a "cropped" AC wave form (some folks say chopped), and it is also true that this can cause problems with some devices. What is not clear yet, is whether the CW-80's waveform is causing your hum, although it's possible. The easiest way to test is to substitute a sine-wave transformer, such as a Lionel 1033. If your dealer is nearby he should assist you with this.

If I were you, I would take advice from this forum, (including mine) however well-meaning, with a grain of salt. Anyone who persists in referring to "the CW-80" is immediately suspect because there are two distincely different versions of them, and the new ones are wired up just the opposite of the older ones. Therefore, to resolve some problems you must hook them up just the opposite of the old ones. For the most part, the owner's manuals do not yet reflect this critical fact.

Call Lionel Technical Service and talk to them. They are open Wed--Fri. Try to get hold of a real technician and not just a "customer service representative."

Reading the Owner's Manuals very carefully can be helpful, but you need to know that they are often unclear, inconsistent, outdated and just plain wrong. The problem is that one doesn't know which sections to believe, but with by starting with the instructions and then doing a little experimentation, you can usually figure things out. With experience it will become clearer.

Since the hum* is bothering you, I suggest that you take the locomotive, transformer and the other electronic components  back to my dealer and have him check them out on his layout or workbench. But first, try what I have suggested above, and let us know your results. Good luck!

* I am not personally familiar with your particular locomotive but I presume it has an electronic reversing unit. (E-unit) The older Lionel locomotives had electro-mechanical e-units which were notorious for humming or buzzing, especially when in neutral. The electronic ones should be virtually silent.

[Anonymous]

Thanks BF...I'll follow your advice and see where it leads me.  I may just take the locomotive and transformer down to the store and have them test it.  I need to have an excuse to go there anyway. 

When I posted this question/concern yesterday and after the first few comments I wasn't 100% where I was hearing the buzzing.  However, this morning I did a test and removed the locomotive and powered up the track.  I can just barely hear the fan running inside the transformer and that doesn't bother me...and isn't where the buzzing sound is coming from.

Next I powered down and placed the locomotive on the track and powered up the transformer (plugging it into the wall) and increasing power to track to 100%.  When this is done the cab light of the locomotive lights as well as the front headlight.  This is the point that the electrical hum begins.  I've worked around electronics, computers etc. for most of my adult life and do often overlook a slight hum or buzz here and there. However, this is loud enough to be annoying only in the fact that I know there will be times where I may not be running this locomotive and wouldn't want to hear it buzzing when the engines aren't running.  When I powerup the locomotive using the CAB-1 remote I can no longer hear the buzz over the diesel engines and other train sounds. 

The buzz or hum is similar to what you might hear if you crank up your stereo (without any music playing).  If you understand what I'm saying...when you crank up a stereo you'll hear a buzz coming through the speakers. 

Thanks and I'll update this post when I get some information.

Jerry

 

[lionelsoni]

It's unlikely that the version of "the CW-80" matters as far as the waveform is concerned, since they both use phase control to vary the voltage.  On the other hand, if the hum occurs only at full output, that is hard to blame on the phase control, since the full sine wave should be put out at that setting.  A test with a real variable transformer should resolve whether the problem is with the locomotive or "the CW-80".

[bfskinner]

lionelsoni,

Hi Bob,

I don't think there is any suggestion in my posts that the waveform differs between the new versus old CW-80's. To the contrary, I specifically stated that the revision primarily affects the hook-up schemes, and that knowing what version you have can be critical for a number of reasons.  Most importantly, if and when a user seeks a replacement, it seems that he ought to specify a revised one rather than an older (obsolete) one. This is difficult to do if (1) you are unaware that there are two versions; and/or (2) you don't know which version you have; and/or (3) you don't know how to distinguish between the two versions.

The same issue arises whenever someone tries to wire-up certain accessories (such as auxillary-powered [non-track powered] switches) to his layout. Do you disagree?

As to why his locomotive is humming/buzzing, I don't have a clue. Do you?

If I had recently purchased an "older model" CW-80 and it was still under warrantly, I would almost hope something went wrong with it so I could get it replaced with one of the revised ones. Why? Because I think the new ones are better and infinitely simpler to hook up. I wouldn't lie or mis-represent what happened just to get a free replacement, but I sure would like one of the new ones if I were entitled to it. Frankly, I think Lionel should have recalled and replaced all of the old ones, but apparently they've been a little busy with lawsuits and cash-flow issues, so I'm not holding my breath.

[lionelsoni]

BF, I was intending to defend Jim Trumpie, who might have jumped a bit early to a conclusion that the CW80 was the culprit, but I think had no reason to distinguish between the two varieties.  You said that "Anyone who persists in referring to "the CW-80" is immediately suspect..."; but, in this case, I think we all agree that the waveform is probably the same.

[Anonymous]

Bob,

        The reason that I suspect the CW80 is because of a similar situation I had.  I use MTH's DCS, and when I connected a Z1000 to the TIU, I heard humming from the locomtive when it was not running.  Like the CW80, the controller that connects to the transformer brick chops the sine wave.  When I connected the brick directly to the TIU (instead of through the controller),  the humming was gone.

[Anonymous]

Just to provide a follow-up to my electrical humming sound with the Lionmaster Canadian Pacific set I purchased last week.

I called Lionel and they did verify that I should have no hum or buzzing sound when the locomotive is sitting idle with engines off.  They believe the issue was with the locomotive.  I went back to my LHS and convinced them to take the set back and I purchased another set.  I'm now the proud owner of a Santa Fe U28CG locomotive and railstock.  This is a standard O set....a real sweet kit.  The only downfall was the set didn't come with track or a transformer. 

 Jerry

[Kooljock1]

1. There is no reason you can not use a CW-80 with TMCC. All TMCC requires is an AC power source. You can use chopped or pure sine wave, modern or Post War, or Pre-War if you so desire. You can use power from MTH, Lionel, K-Line, Marx, Right of Way, or Home Depot...as long as it doesn't peak above 20 or so volts(18 would be better), and puts out AC, you should be fine.

2. Remember the internal circuits of a CW-80 ramp power up to the track. When using engines equipped with RailSounds, there will be a brief period of the RailSounds not recieving optimum operating power during this ramp-up period. It should only last a few seconds at most, but the effect will be a hissing or buzzing until the RailSounds get enough voltage to operate on.

3. New CW-80's have had their internal circuit reversals fixed as well as a beefed up fuse. They're now really nice little transformers!

Jon

[lionelsoni]

Jon, 20 volts peak is only 14 volts RMS; and 18 peak is 13 RMS.  I think you meant the maximum RMS voltage, not the peak voltage.  For a sine wave, the peak voltages would be 28 and 25 volts respectively if you meant RMS.  For non-sinusoidal waveforms, the ratio of the peak voltage to the RMS voltage (called the crest factor) depends entirely on the waveform.

The CW80 does not chop the waveform; it uses phase control.  Turned all the way up, it should be sinusoidal, which I presume must be tolerated by TMCC.  Whether TMCC is immune to all the possible non-sinusoidal waveforms that modern electronics can produce is something I'm skeptical about.