People actually buy this stuff!

[Lenny the Lion]

I There's one guy over in OGRLand who buys just about EVERY PWC piece made.  But has never run any of it!  THAT I DON'T understand!  I mean, what's the point?

 Ranks right up there with the guy who buys the $1800 engine, gripes for months on end about some piddly little detail that's wrong, and then runs it on his oval slapped down on a sheet of indoor/outdoor carpet.  If that's all your layout is, then don't sweat the details! 

 

Right on with that statement!  I've been posting over there at OGRLand for some time now and it gets pretty tiresome reading those kinds of threads. What I don't get is why they keep buying the $1000.00 + stuff despite all the nitpicking.    Go figure.

Glad I came over here, it's a breath of fresh air!

[jakeoregano]

Jake I hear ya!Let's face it a '69 Chevelle SS396 is vastly superior to a new Camry.Can't beat the looks of a classic '60s muscle car!

-same reason why I like the old Lionel stuff.  I just like the old stuff better.

Jakeoregano (aka Dwayne)

[1688torpedo]

 Hello Jerry & to the forum! I do hope that you get your old trains running again & if you need any help just ask. Take Care.

[Anonymous]

I don't think I can say anything that hasn't already been said.  However, after reading through the 6 pages of posts, I guess I fall into the category of someone who could afford to spend $1000 or even $2000 on a locomotive.  Who knows...I might just do it someday. 

I believe this is my second post since joining this forum....I've learned a lot since joining last week.  I'm confident it won't be my last...this is a great place. 

My interest in trains was re-kindled a few months ago when I was visiting with my parents and found my old train set.  I've picked up a few magazines over the past few months and have been doing research on how to get my train empire started again.  I realized quickly that in order to accomplish what I want to accomplish, I'll need to spend some $$$$.  While my old train set (circa 1974-76) and my Uncle's train set (circa 1948-50) will be my cherished centerpieces, I may or may not run them. 

Anyway, what I do know is I'm planning on starting small....but have a fairly large dream layout which I'll continue to add-on and build as the years go by.  All I've accomplished to date is I've purchased a starter set (Lionmaster Canadian Pacific Diesel Freight Set) and some books on layout, wiring etc.  My next step is to start building my bench framework in my basement.  Like I said, I will start small by adding a few extra feet of track and switches but my attempt will be to create the layout so that I can continue to add track as I acquire it.  (I realize this isn't a new concept).

I try to approach things (especially things that cost $$$) with the concept of spending a little more money for quality, reputation etc. For instance, we needed to make some home improvements last summer and the soon to be wife wanted a few other things built (honey do projects).  I really didn't have any woodworking tools so I went and looked to see what Lowes and Home Depot offered.  I saw several relatively inexpensive tablesaws for $200-300.00.  However, they had smaller motors and weren't build very heavy duty.  Long story short, I chose to buy the Delta Contractor series equipment.  I figured this equipment would last the rest of my life with routine maintenance and perhaps a motor overhaul in a few years etc.  I have better equipment then some of the contractors I know.  I'm waiting for the weather to warm up just a bit and then it'll be time to degrease my equipment and start on my train layout.

I thank God each and every day for all he's blessed me with.  My fiance and I both have good jobs (we work in the IT field) and we're fortunate that we're healthy and happy.  We're putting money away for the future and also spending money where and how we want.  We don't have children...it's just us. 

Anyway, I'm sorry this has turned out to be so long.  I'm not sure who in this thread said it...but someone said something like just spend what you can spend and be happy.  The "Be Happy" bit is what is most important.  Life is too short not to have fun and I'm guessing if you're reading this, then you at least have an interest in trains...so have fun.

 Jerry

[lionelsoni]

Zinc pest is still around.  I have had a number of K-Line trucks (bogies) and a couple of semi-trailer roofs disintegrate on me.  And MTH replaced my Big Boy casting recently, because the hatch covers were coming apart.

[1688torpedo]

 Bob-  Whoever sold the Zinc to Dorfan for Train production must have been a shady person with bad business skills. Just about all of Dorfans prewar engine production have crumbled to dust & this is what contributed to their demise as a company. What a shame too as they had nice looking trains especially the lithograph versions. My Father & Uncle had a Dorfan Passenger set with the 400 series cars from 1928(my cousin has it now) However,the engine is long gone due to the above situation. I know Lionel & Flyer had zinc pest. Not as bad as Dorfan though. They got the short end of the stick. So to speak. Take Care.

[lionelsoni]

Keith, I too have always heard that Ives's problem was contaminated zinc ("zinc pest"), but with lead, not copper.  Copper and zinc make brass, which seems unlikely to be a problem.

[3railguy]

Ives trains were more expensive than Lionel because they had more parts and required more labor to assemble. Lionel outsold them as a result. Lionel bought Ives mainly for their patented mechanical E unit reverse unit which was superior to Lionel's pendulum reverse unit. Otherwise Lionel used up excess Ives parts for the famous "transition era" trains. Beyond that very little of what Ives produced such as the track clips were utilized by Lionel.

[Kooljock1]

I was under the impression that Ives went under due to a poorly chosen product line, not due to Lionel. After the first World War Ives concentrated on building boats and wind-up trains. Problem was, smaller companies could easily undercut Ives pricing and product quality with cheaper made and cheaper priced units.

Combine this with Ives comparative lack of marketing genius, and it was a recipe for disaster. In 1926 Ives sold $1,000,000 in trains and boats, while Lionel sold more than twice as much. By the end of the decade Ives' creditors were circling. At that point JLC and W. O. Coleman the founder of Chicago's American Flyer each bought half interest in Ives.

Aside from Lionel's almost laughably heavy-handed marketing of the time (VERY reminiscient of early MTH ads!), I don't see anything I would call "tainted". There IS however a long history of Lionel approaching the very brink of financial disaster over and over again!

Jon

[1688torpedo]

 Lee- Dorfan used copper in their Zinc castings thinking that it would make a stronger casting overall. However, this did not work as the copper attacked the zamac(zinc) & the castings crumbled into dust. sometimes even less than a year after they were made. This is the reason why so few Dorfan Engines are seen anywhere. About the only Casting Dorfan had that survived so well are the 1134 Standard Gauge Castings leftover from Ives that were made of cast iron & were not Brittle like Dorfan's. Lionel Did not put Ives out of Business. This is an old myth. What happened was that the company that published Ives' Train Catalog for them put Ives in Bankruptcy after Ives fell behind in paying their bills to the publisher. Harry Ives was like Larry Cowen in that they did not have the Midas Touch like their father's did when running a business.(Everything King Midas touched turned to Gold according to the school tale) Also,Ives had a repair policy where they did not charge for repairs done on Toy Train's which was not conducive to their financial situation & contributed to their falling behind on their finances also. Lionel did not put American Flyer out of business either. Lionel & Flyer both suffered from poor management & loss of market share in the 60s which led to the demise of the Toy Train business in those days. Lionel did sue Flyer back in the 50s for a patent violation. However, that was settled out of court & did not last 8 years like the current situation so there is no comparison there. Take Care.

[philo426]

Jake I hear ya!Let's face it a '69 Chevelle SS396 is vastly superior to a new Camry.Can't beat the looks of a classic '60s muscle car!

[phillyreading]

Paul,

It's possible about too much zinc.   More about Dorfan; the name is taken from female relatives that the man had, Dora & Fanny.

Lee F.

[pbjwilson]

 

Not sure but why is Dorfan Company out of business?   Used to make three rail models in O gauge during the 1930's if I am correct.

Lee F.

Too much zinc in the pot?

[phillyreading]

Jon  aka Kooljock1,

Nice to mention some of Lionel's history, but Lionel's history is even more tainted than you may know about.  How about all the lawsuits in the past from 1930 on, Lionel sued Ives Corporation and the result is that Ives went out of business shortly there after.   Joshua L Cowan was a real shrude business man and sued his compition out of business several times.  I mention this because of the current lawsuits today Lionel verses K-Line, MTH verses Lionel, lawsuits in model railroad are NOT a new thing!!          

Not sure but why is Dorfan Company out of business?   Used to make three rail models in O gauge during the 1930's if I am correct.

Lee F.

[3railguy]

I guess sex and trains do have one thing in common. There is no such thing as a bad train. Exception being the Coors Silver Bullit.

[Anonymous]

. . . I don't know if it's fair to say that the union drove Lionel to create jobs elsewhere.

I think it's entirely fair to say that because that's precisely what happened.  But they didn't create jobs elsewhere.  Those jobs were already there; Lionel just added to the workload.  Wages and benefits in the U.S., combined with domestic competition (even for O gauge toy trains), is what drove Lionel, and has driven virtually every other industry, to turn to offshore manufacturing.  And that's just a simple and well-accepted fact of life.

[jakeoregano]

Ok,maybe one more post before we declare it dead...

I buy what I like and what I can afford.  People buy stuff for all kinds of reasons, and like so many said already-it's about individual preference and means.  I have trains, and occassionally buy more, because they connect me to memories of my childhood and my grandfather who left me the ones that got me started.  I enjoy having them AND running them.

These kinds of discussions are the same in any hobby.  No doubt that most of my friends think I'm crazy for restoring my vintage car they would call a money pit.  Just buy a new car they say.  They don't understand, but most vintage car owners in my shoes probably could.  I don't put money into it for its monetary value, but the enjoyment I get out of driving and maintaining it. 

I would think that some -not huge, but a fair minority of train hobbyists - derive enjoyment from merely acquiring the trains, and the cost really isn't the overarching factor. 

To each his own.

Jakeoregano (aka Dwayne) 

 

 

[c50truck]

Why do I care?

Sorry folks, I don't! Any more than I care about what the person next to me paid for their plane ticket, or the person next to me who paid for their concert ticket. I do not care.  Yes people actually buy this stuff. They, and they alone have their reason.

So lighten up. If someone pays more than you, let it go. they have their reason, you have yours.

Why is this so difficult for folks to understand? I thought this was a free country? I did not realize we had to conform to the group. Of course, I do NOT have the means to pay such prices. But being this is a free country, thank you veterns, I may some day.

 Rod L.

 

 

[Anonymous]

.

Got to stir things up once in awhile.

Whats the saying about never bringing up the topics of religion, politics, and money,

... or is it sex?   No sex is always good to talk about.

How could I work that into a toy train topic? 

.........................................

Pronounced...   well, YOU know!

 

[msacco]

Wow, this thread would certainly have been locked up on the other Forum by now.

 

Mike S.

[ChiefEagles]

Kooljock--  

Whew...... you had me worried for a second about folks blowing money, thank goodness you didn't mention a motorcycle in that paragraph.  Absolutely one of lifes neccessities in my world.

 

Jon

Especially when it snows and ices a lot around where you live.  

[Anonymous]

Paul,

This is why the workers unionized, and drove Lionel as early as the 1960's to have their motors produced in Japan.

Jon

Is there something wrong with the union? Without the union I would not be getting half the wages, benefits or anything like that. Without the hard work of UPS employees they would not be able to profit 3.5 BILLION $$ a year! I think we need each other. Yes, there are differances but, without the union this Co. would fail. Nobody would do what I do for 11 Hrs a day, they would quit! It happens now, even though they know how much they will make.  I don't know if it's fair to say that the union drove Lionel to create jobs elsewhere.

Just havin' conversation, not pickin' a fight!

 

[jonadel]

Kooljock--  

Whew...... you had me worried for a second about folks blowing money, thank goodness you didn't mention a motorcycle in that paragraph.  Absolutely one of lifes neccessities in my world.

 

Jon

[laz 57]

Hey PAUL did you ever think this thread would have so much interest?

laz57

Got to stir things up once in awhile. Whats the saying about never bringing up the topics of religion, politics, and money, or is it sex? No sex is always good to talk about. How could I work that into a toy train topic? 

 

Hey PAUL, how about What's your sexyist steamer or Layout sexy scenes?  Probably would get squashed?

laz57

[Kooljock1]

Paul,

In regards to your toungue-in-cheek supposition of last night regarding finances, after long and hard study of folks suffering from economic envy, I think I can fairly state:

"The Rich": anyone who makes a dollar more than you.

"Livable Wage": the amount of money it would take to cover the fact that you're already living above your means. Here in Vermont I've seen numbers from "Livable Wage Activists" that claim I'm "poor" and not earning a "livable wage". I have three well-fed, well clothed children, a new Jeep, a nice train layout in the basement, and I'm typing this on a year old iMac G-5. I still have enough left over to give to the church, and volunteer my time to a few philantropic organizations. So what would a "liviable wage" mean? Perhaps taking the kids to Disney? Plane tickets ARE a priority for some...

"Trains are too expensive": this is from anyone who does not consider toy trains a priority. They'll blow just as much on an X-Box 360, PS-3, ATV, Snowmobile, ski-boat, bass boat, or Hummel collection though.

As far as comparing today's trains to Post War, you'll have a very tough row to hoe. In the Post War era, Lionel developed very little original tooling for their steam engine line. Consider that the 646/2046/726/736 was a modified Pre-War tool. So was the 675/2025 and even the lowly Scouts and 2018 types all stemmed from the Pre-War era. Die Cast tooling is very expensive, and we demand new die-cast beasts each year.
The tooling is so expensive that in the 1930's Lionel had their die-cast tools made in fascist Italy. And we demand better sounds. And we demand kooler electronic controls.

In the Post War era, Lionel was using a Pre-War E-unit(developed by Ives!) and a mechanical whistle developed in the mid-30's.

Also, in the days of Lionel providing a "living wage" for American workers, consider: most of the assembly workers were women providing "pin" money to their families. They also were furloughed for large parts of the year, getting callled back up in June or so to begin production of the line for the next Christmas. Have any of you ever read an article about a Lionel employee who actually worked on the line? No. Because it was a very low-glamour, low-wage, dead-end job. This is why the workers unionized, and drove Lionel as early as the 1960's to have their motors produced in Japan.

Jon

[Anonymous]

I agree, I don't understand buying remakes of old tinplate. I guess people don't want to run the original ones; they just sit on the shelves or worse...in boxes!. . .

They also must buy the remakes for the technology that is in them. The TMCC, the Protosound, and the smoke that was never in the old ones. I can understand that reason .

Well, I certainly like the new motors and features in reproduction tinplate (speed control in Std. Gauge is awesome, in my opinion), but I primarily buy repros (Std. Gauge and Marx) because I like new, bright, pristine, smooth running, and relatively quiet tinplate trains.  I don't hesitate to run them, but I like to keep them in like-new condition, and I couldn't afford to buy originals of that overall quality even if I could find them.  Beyond that, the repros are, in most cases, better made than the originals, and have better paint and graphics.

The hobby is different things to different people.  I have no trouble understanding why some people prefer only the original toys from many years ago--evewn those that have been well used.  At the same time, I have no trouble understanding why some of us ( in growing numbers) are truly grateful for the superb reproductions of those earlier toys that are being offered today. 

[3railguy]

Just trying to be a little amusing and light hearted. It is Friday. I'm sick of this topic too, let it die.

LOL....lighten up...you brought it on yourself.

[pbjwilson]

Hey PAUL did you ever think this thread would have so much interest?

laz57

Got to stir things up once in awhile. Whats the saying about never bringing up the topics of religion, politics, and money, or is it sex? No sex is always good to talk about. How could I work that into a toy train topic? 

[palallin]

If the tether is done well, it very closely resembles some of the hose connections used in real life, thus enhancing the look.  Unfortunately, many are not done well.