I have been designing a layout for a couple of weeks now, and have a quick question. Right now I have a looping 0-31 pike inside of a glorified oval, and the oval is 042. The two tracks are independant right now. The pike is on a grade. the 0-42 loop is pretty flat. I wanted to be able to run longer passenger trains on the outer oval independant of the pike. On an operation standpoint, should I rework it to share at least one turnout so the tracks can be transversed? Each track does have at least one good passing zone already in the design, and the 042 loop also has a long spur to park other trains on. I have been trying to find out if a freight train would ever need to pull into a passenger station in real life, and vise-versa. I don't think it would. Bringing the two together is going to be difficult with this design, but I can keep working on it if I'm going to regret not doing so.
You guys always come up with stuff I never think of.
Thanks,Wes
Hello Wes:
When I was planning my layout, I posted a drawing of it (from RR-Track) in a thread and I got great feedback that helped me fine tune it. If you have a drawing of it, you may want to post it so that all of us can better visualize what you have at present.
For me, I like operating the trains, so the ability to switch between the inner loop and the outer loop would be important. Who's to say that you will only run a passenger train on the outer loop? You may also want to have a high priority freight train roll through the outer loop. Or, even have a passenger local on the inner pike. Do you also have a reversing loop? A reversing loop can add all sorts of additional operational possibilities.
Also, how will the trains be operated? Conventional or command control will also play a role in how the two loops could/would interact.
Regards,
John O
Wes,
Depends on a few things. How much room do you have? What are YOUR likes and dislikes (what do you like less) regarding running trains. With me, I like passenger trains, but I like frieght more. I have three levels with the upper level able to run two trains around a loop with siding. I then have a middle level that will run logging/mining train operations in a single loop. The lower (main) level is much bigger with two loops that have a double crossover and a reversing loop in the middle. Off the outer loop, it can switch to a larger loop that contains a freight yard and serve several industries. It is large enough that I can run 7 trains at once. I don't see a need to make freight and passenger mix, though, the main loop does offer enough trackage, that if I wanted to, I could get away with running the occasional passenger consist, but I would have to assemble the train down there, no connection to the upper passenger loops.
Not sure if this helps, the best method would be to set up a simple, less permanent layout and see how you feel as it is you that must be happy.
dennis
TCA#09-63805
Thanks for the input guys. I'm still working out a few things with the track grade. I'm looking at around 5' x 16'. I have been trying to track down as many layouts that I can to get ideas on, and I find that pictures of running layouts work much better for me than computer layouts, but both are important. I end up cramming as much track as I can when all I have to do is point and click!
I would love to see a track diagram of your layout Dennis. It sounds very big!
Things that are most important to me are:
1. At least 2 trains running at the same time, and have the ability to run unassisted. I would prefer them not to be to parallel loops all the way around the track, but it's is probably unavoidable with my size limitations.
2. At least 1 siding to park a train on, and at least one passing zone.
3. I learned from Buckeye Riviter that making a train disappear in a tunnel does wonders for previeved train track length. So I need at least one tunnel.
4. Some grading. Perferably a loop on top of that mountain.
5. At least one track of 0-42 for those bigger engines and 60' cars that require bigger turns. I want to be able to run bigger scale trains without derailment.
6. I want a train station with room for a couple of city buildings (storefronts and municiple).
7. Some room for scenery, but I would rather concentrate on buildings and streets. I would like to put the Kline city street track in there with continuous running cars.
8. I want it capable of being busy (when I get good enough to control it all).
With all of this going on, I think I'm going to have to stick with command mode for when I get multiple trains running on the same track.
I have around a 4% grade on the pike, and the loop around connecting the pike to the 042 loop. That's probably a bit excessive on the grade, and I will see if I can extend another couple of feet if neccesary. I ended up just putting a turnout on the top of the mountain pike that will go around the bottom right to join in with the 042 circle.
There is so much track here that it is going to take forever to afford the track anyhow, but I like to have a game plan.
I need to convert my bmp to Jpeg for my hosting site to work. I'll post it tonight.
Here are 3 plans (of the many that I have been doing with subtle differences).
5x11 ft.
This one was what I started with. The 0-31 pike is a little steep (close to 6%). Each end of the pike has a loop, and a small place for a short train to stay clear as another train makes the loop. The 031 and 042 routes are separate. The pike is on top of a mountain, and sits on top of the other pike loop (bottom has tunnels). They two gray boxes are the station for now. A train can also sit at the station while another train passes by on it's normal route up the hill. There is a spur to hold a longer train idle on the 042.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804222802177/2
5x14
This next one is 3 ft longer to help the grade of the pike. I split the 0-31 track up into two tracks (Up and Down) that come back together at the turnaround. This seemed logical since it would allow me to either run two trains at once, or store trains on the track and just run one, or more things that I don't know about yet The two tracks will be on a similar grade up the hill. I will most likely just use mostly a filled dirt hillside behind the city. The 0-31 and 042 dont cross yet, but I really like this design so far. It was what I had when I posted this morning.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804222780408/1
And here is my attempt to joint the two runs. I also decided to throw in some of the Kline roadtrack. I know my turnaround isn't big enough, but I think I have to room to fit it under the mountain. I wanted to give a continuous car movement with a two lane road. It's a blind around the mountain, but will probably circle around a monument downtown. I won't know until I see it, I guess.
5x16
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804222787249/0
The far right track will start at the highest point (6-8" since I don't know how low you can make a mountain and still have a train fit under it), and work it's way around until it meets the 042 turnout on the bottom. I'm in the 4% range here.
The main 042 loop will stay at 0 height the entire way around. I still need to finalize the grades and make sure all my layers work. I plan on concentrating most of my modeling in the city, and the montains, plus a few things here and there between tracks. Bridges, Trusses, and just plain dirt will be my grade filler.
So those are my ideas so far. Please post anything you would change.
The old saying is "There is a prototype for everything."
In the last few months, the old Pennsylvania Railroad line that bypasses Washington (DC) Union Station was closed because one of the bridges was near collapse. CSX ran the Tropicana Juice Train and some other "Hot Shot" trains through Union Station. There were pictures in "Trains", "Railfan", and Railpace News".
Mel Hazen
Jacksonville, FL
Mel Hazen; Jax, FL Ride Amtrak. It's the only way to fly!!!
True. You will find everything out there. No one says you even have to have a train station, but I want one!
Wes
Hi Wes
Your work looks super! I personally like the 5 x 16. The 4% grade will be tough. I didn't notice from the post if there is a curve on the grade. These can be a bit adventureous. This said, i have one. I keep the direction always up on this steep grade and then constructed a less steep decline without curves to cut out derailments. I allow for all loops [i have 4] to interconnect. I built a large undertable storage yard that allows me to bring up different consists. so getting from the storage to the right track requires a freight over passenger lines and some passengers go thru the freight yard....well it's like a real road where a freight passes causes a passenger train to wait a bit and the amtrack goes thru a yard. Stations are great, but freight stations are a ton of fun.
Ralph
Wes, I will try to post some photos soon. The RR TRACKS program was very helpful. I know what you mean about expense when it comes to track. I bought over $2700.00 in track and that is not including some that I already had. While I ended up not sticking entirely to my program plan, it did make for a great foundation. I will try to rework the program and make it fit what I ended up with. The layout itself is not huge, but it is on the larger side. I used mostly 60 curves with a mix of 48 in there. Currently, I have the track down with the foam board, but need to finish wiring and scenery.
As for a complicated track plan with command control, my layout is actually rather simple. Since I don't have the different levels connected, it is easy to leave two levels on "automatic", and work with the first level which has plenty of switching capabilities. I have relays for block control which will allow you to run a few trains on one loop, but the beauty of it is that you don't have to have many trains on that level. With the action of the other two levels, you can just focus on one level with say, two trains going and conventional control. I am putting in Command Control, but still plan on running mostly conventional with it. The two upper levels will be entirely conventional with block/relays.
I hope I have not confused you with all this, but when I get the pictures up, it will make sense.
Regards,Dennis
I would be envious of any of the three you ended up choosing. You have the ability to have trains switch from the inner to outer loops (and vice versa) along with a reversing loop. I would echo what Dennis said. If you can lay it out on a temporary basis to test it, you will be able to make changes based on how the layout works for you.
Keep us updated!
Thanks everyone. I'm still collecting track. MTH seems to have a shortage. I am actually getting ready to build the benchwork first, And I will probably just make 5x4 tables and stack them end to end. As I acumulate track, I will build more tables. I always feel that I need a good idea of what I'm doing first though.
I will see if I can rework the grade a little. What height do most people build up to on mountains? I need a target height.
I would love to see the under table consist yard. Any pictures?
Dennis, that is a ton of money on track! I'm sure I will be under $1500 or so, I hope. Get some pictures so I can see where $2700 goes!
Cheech,
Both grades have a corner involved. One is 031, and one is 042.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804223632238/0
Good morning!
I tried using a turnout under the mountain to connect both tracks. I think it will work, but you guys can let me know. The track under the mountain is on the same height as the 042 track just outside of the mountain, but it's going to be a blind crossover since it's happening at the back of the layout. I wouldn't think that would be too much of a problem, as long as I have properly running switches.
This allowed me to reduce the length of the table down to 15', which is really about as wide as I can go. I measured the train room last night and it's just over 15' wide. There is room for an L on both ends of the track though.
I also fixed the outer 031 pike next to the 042 curve and made it a little smoother.
Have a good day,
Old model railway truism don't put points (switches) in a tunnel it invites disaster.
If one switch fails you will have no indication of it until a train creates a new tunnel mouth that wasn't there a minute ago or hits the floor having exited the tunnel out of the access hole you did plan on having just in case.
regards John
The tunnel isn't very wide. i would be able to clean out the tunnel after a mishap. One of the points is outside of the tunnel, and the other is just inside of it. I could pull that one out into view as well. I see what you are saying though. This changover wouldn't be used regularly, which would help matters some. All good points though. Maybe I can find a better place to put the changeover.
Wes, as mentioned above, hidden switches might not be desirable, but they may be the best we can do. OGR has a backshop video, or article or something about how to use LEDs to indicate train location on the tracks and switch location. It allows for you to know if a certain track is occupied. I do have a hidden reversing loop and plan on doing this with the LEDs that can either be run as indicator lights on a control panel, or, I have also seen where a guy wired a switch tower with red and green lights. If the track was occupied, the light in the tower was red, if clear, it was green. I will have to get the pictures done soon. I had some but had a major computer crash and cleared them.
Dennis,
That's something I have wanted to add in my ceiling layout that I am also working on. I wasn't planning on using LEDs because they are DC only (I think). I was just going to use AC bulbs. I would be more than eager to learn how they do it with LEDs though. It would come in handy on any layout!
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
You can do it with incandescent or LED, AC or DC.
For incandescent, connect one lamp terminal to the isolated outside rail, the other lamp terminal to a supply of the appropriate voltage, returned to the common outside rails. The power supply can be DC or AC, in phase or out of phase with the track voltage, it doesn't matter. (If you have LED assemblies designed to replace incandescent lamps, just use them as if they were incandescent lamps.)
For simple LEDs, wire a diode (1N914, 1N4148, e.g.) in parallel with each LED but in the opposite direction, cathode to anode. Then put a resistor in series with this LED-diode pair. Use the whole circuit in place of an incandescent lamp. The resistor should be roughly 1000 ohms for a supply in the 10-20 volt ballpark, more if that's too bright for you. Calculate the resistor's power dissipation as the square of the voltage divided by the resistance (in ohms), then divided again by 2 for the AC case. Then use a resistor with at least twice that power rating, to keep the resistor reasonably cool. (This is an instance where derating a component does some good.)
Using a DC supply, the parallel diode is not absolutely necessary but a very good precaution against accidental reverse voltage, which will kill your LED. Also, with DC the LED will light only if its current is flowing from anode to cathode. So, if it doesn't light, simply turn the entire 3-element circuit around. (Or throw it away if you didn't put the diode in...;-)
Bob Nelson
I have been doing some homework on grades. I have some 027 track in a V shape, and I'm close to 3% so far, and I have found that my MTH 2-8-0 with cruise control has absolutely no problem pulling a 9 car consist. It backs down just as well as it pulls up. Now my Lionel Alaskan diesel without speed control spins it's wheels like mad. This loco only has one set of power trucks, and it's very light. I need to crank up the grade, but I bet I can do at least 4% with the MTH. Just something I learned since I have never really worked with grades much. More testing will tell the limits.
I'm waiting on my RR-track Lionel 027 and 0 upgrades. I want to try these designs in a tighter corner just to see how narrow I can make the benchwork. It blows my having the ability to run longer wheelbase trains, but I just want to try it.
Thanks for everything. I'll try to incorporate everything everyone said.
I was back at it tonight trying to improve my design. I'm not sure if this is a ton better, but I removed the 42" outer curve and replaced it with 54" curves. I still can't run the biggest of the trains, but I can run a bunch of the bigger ones! I removed the blind point under the mountain completely. I also went back down to one set of rails up and down the mountain pike. I tried my first attempt at building a switch yard, which I used to gain access to all tracks for all trains. This seems like a lot of money in switches. Still, a train can come of the pike, take a quick right just before the station, and either park on a siding, or go around the 54" loop. A passenger train can be in the station while another pike bound train can pass right by it and hit the loop, and go right back up, not effecting the passenger train's load up.
I also made some really long sidings. I can store some pretty long trains on them. I don't really have all of the frieght stops figured out yet, but I'm constantly trying to find posts that describe what you should do with sidings and operating items. I have a bunch of sidings that could be removed if I need to get some equipment in there.
Anyhow, keep the ideas coming.
Thanks,
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804226085782/0
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