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Newer Lionel track still steel?

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Newer Lionel track still steel?
Posted by yallaen on Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:15 PM

I'm starting to solder key sections of my layout together. Not the whole thing, but like where the switches are located. I want to have those secure before I begin tracing out the roadbed and gluing it down.

I tried to solder a new piece of Lionel (it just says Lionel on the tie..not Lionel NYC) to a switch. I'm using a 25w soldering iron (not a soldering gun, but one that you plug in with interchangeable tips). I know I have too small of a tip on it now, and am going to change the tip to a more broad type tip. However, it just seemed like I was having trouble getting the solder to adhere and bond to the rail. I know you need good heat on the metal, and the metal is clean. I'm just wondering if a. my iron isnt big enough, or b. the rails are aluminum.

I can attach pics if it will help

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Posted by underworld on Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:18 PM

Check the rails with a magnet....if it doesn't stick it isn't steel or iron.

underworldBig Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]

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Posted by jefelectric on Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:22 PM
To the best of my knowledge all Lionel track is steel.  You definately are using to small of a soldering iron.  You need a 250w soldering gun or at least a 100w iron to do the job.  The track is either tinned or galvanized.  If tinned it should take solder readily, if galvanized you may need to use acid flux to make a good solder joint.  If you use acid flux be sure to clean the area, as it will promote rusting.
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Posted by csxt30 on Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:23 PM

I've soldered to the tubular track before, but I always used a Weller 100 / 140 watt soldering iron. I never tried with just a 25 watt one. Hope this helps or maybe you're not doing something right, but otherwise you'll need to purchasw the bigger one & would be good to have it anyway !!

Thanks, John 

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Posted by yallaen on Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:34 PM

Yeah...sound like I need the bigger iron or gun.

Let me guess..radio shack? Anywhere else?

 

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Posted by Roger Bielen on Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:58 PM
yallaen - if you decide on a gun try Loew's, Home Depot, or maybe even Walmart.
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Posted by msacco on Sunday, January 28, 2007 6:38 PM

my layout is tubular with soldered connections. Here's  how I do it:

I first use emery and remove oxidation from both the wire end and the rail where the join will be. I then add some flux to the wire end and the rail section.

Next I heat the wire end and tin it. Then the rail secton gets tinned by heating with a gun for sure and slowly dragging the tip of the iron along the side of the rail as I melt solder across a half inch or so of the rail.

Finally, I use needlnose pliers and position the wire end on the tinned side of the rail and heat the rail secton again until the two tinned pieces flow together.

 

Mike S.

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Posted by ben10ben on Sunday, January 28, 2007 6:44 PM

I like the 100 watt gun Radio Shack sells. I've had mine for around three years now, and not a bit of trouble with it. When I bought it, I had the store order me five extra tips. I've replaced the tip once in all that time.

I've never found 100 watts to not be enough power.

Ben TCA 09-63474
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Posted by yallaen on Sunday, January 28, 2007 6:59 PM

LOL..my Dad busted my chops for this forum..I told him about it. He said "don't you remember my Weller soldering gun growing up". OOPS..that was the one I think I dropped lol..

 Just ran to Lowes and got a 140w Weller with light for $29.00. That should do the trick!

Now..do I solder all the joints? Just the middle track? And do I do it on top of the foam roadbed or beforehand? Gotta watch one of my shows on tv..then back at the layout lol...

 

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Posted by pbjwilson on Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:51 PM
 msacco wrote:

my layout is tubular with soldered connections. Here's  how I do it:

I first use emery and remove oxidation from both the wire end and the rail where the join will be. I then add some flux to the wire end and the rail section.

Next I heat the wire end and tin it. Then the rail secton gets tinned by heating with a gun for sure and slowly dragging the tip of the iron along the side of the rail as I melt solder across a half inch or so of the rail.

Finally, I use needlnose pliers and position the wire end on the tinned side of the rail and heat the rail secton again until the two tinned pieces flow together.

 

Mike S.

Mike has got it covered. The roughing up with emery cloth is essential.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 29, 2007 9:26 AM

I soldered all my connections to the rail before I fastened down the track.  I did it to the bottoms of the rail so they wouldn't be seen.  I added flux to the center of the rail to get  it flowing.  It takes a little more effort to install because you have to drill holes for the wires directly below the rails, but I think it makes for a cleaner installation.

I used feeders and grounds about every 4 feet.  This is overkill, but I didn't want any current dropoff the further things got from the transformer location.  I personally don't believe there's any reason you should need to solder your track joints in O gauge.  My method isn't relying on the track to carry all of the current.  There's much more resistance in steel than there is in 14 and 12 gauge stranded copper wire.

 Fred

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Posted by phillyreading on Monday, January 29, 2007 9:36 AM
 underworld wrote:

Check the rails with a magnet....if it doesn't stick it isn't steel or iron.

underworldBig Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]

That statement about metal may not always be true as there are many grades of steel made by major U.S. steel companies, it depends on what is added to the steel when it is made. The reason I say this is because my dad is a metalargist with Carpenter Technology, used to be Carpenter Steel Company.

Lee F.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, January 29, 2007 10:06 AM

Fred is right that "there's [no] reason you should need to solder your track joints".  However, there are a couple of good reasons to want to solder them:

If you also omit the track pins (or whatever your track has instead), it becomes much easier to remove small sections without ripping up a lot of otherwise uninvolved track just to get the slack to unplug the sections from each other.

It is about as much of a nuisance to make multiple feeder connections as it is to solder the rails, especially if you take advantage of the long sections now available.  Steel has a much higher resistivity than copper; but the rails are large, making the resistance not as great as you might imagine.  Of course, it depends on the type of track you're using; but most types are roughly equivalent to 16 AWG copper (solid or stranded--it makes no difference) in resistance.

Imagine a 100-foot loop on a good-sized layout with a train drawing 5 amperes.  Since 16 AWG has 4 milliohms per foot, thats 400 milliohms of resistance and a tolerable 2 volts of drop, right?  Not if the loop is a single block.  When the train is farthest from the transformer, there are only 50 feet of track between them, not 100.  And, further, there are another 50 feet in the other direction around the loop, whose resistance is in parallel.  The result is only 500 millivolts of drop, which is almost nothing.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by yallaen on Monday, January 29, 2007 10:51 AM

I've tighened up most of the connections. I soldered the areas which are least accessable. My layout is a big "L", about 18 x 18, with loops at either end. I figure to put feeders in the middle, each end, and on each loop end. That should be about 10 feet between feeders give or take.

 

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Posted by Andrew Falconer on Monday, January 29, 2007 4:29 PM

Magne-Traction relies on high-iron steel to work.

Lionel is still using Magne-Traction.

Andrew

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Posted by ADCX Rob on Monday, January 29, 2007 4:58 PM
 phillyreading wrote:
 underworld wrote:

Check the rails with a magnet....if it doesn't stick it isn't steel or iron.

underworldBig Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]

That statement about metal may not always be true as there are many grades of steel made by major U.S. steel companies, it depends on what is added to the steel when it is made. The reason I say this is because my dad is a metalargist with Carpenter Technology, used to be Carpenter Steel Company.

Lee F.

Absolutely the fact here folks.

I recently checked all my GarGraves stainless, and it is in fact ferrous, as my test magnets do stick to it.  I guess it would have to be, or it couldn't be called "steel"!

Rob 

Rob

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Posted by jefelectric on Monday, January 29, 2007 5:32 PM
There are many grades of stainless steel, the cheaper grades are magnetic, the better grades are not.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 29, 2007 6:10 PM

The key is flux, either paste or liquid, it makes stuff solder sooo much better.  Roughing it up isn't going to hurt.  I have both liquid and paste.  A paper clip bent straight can apply paste flux to a small part quite well.  I helped a friend solder some connections in either dump cars or unloading hopper cars, they were form the 40's I guess.  I'm not that seriously into trains, but he had seen me solder some stuff and asked if I could help.  He was amazed at what difference a little dab of flux would do (other than what's in rosin core solder), and definately "tinning" both parts prior to soldering works great as well.  The other thing is to have various thicknesses of wire, small for small stuff, and larger for stuff like track.  Radio Shack used to carry a good selection of this stuff, but I haven't been as happy with the Shack last few times I've been in there.  Some local hardware stores have good soldering stuff.  A 4oz bottle of flux has lasted me nearly 15 years. 

I used to buy my stuff at an electronics place in the town I used to live in, I'd go there on my lunch hour and get whatever I needed.  However, my friend tells me it's closed now.  People there would give good advice on what would work.  Kinda like the LHS, I suppose.

Just tin the track first and you'll be fine.  You should be able to solder it with a 30 watt iron or so, just take a while.  The solder gun will go much faster.

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Posted by phillyreading on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:56 AM

If you are going to solder you need a good soldering gun over 100 watts like Jef E mentioned, not a soldering pencil, the solder needs to be new also not over two years old for best results and get a solder that is compatible to what you are soldering. One last thing make sure you have very good ventilation for a large job.

GarGraves makes at least two types of steel track; stainless steel and regular steel. I buy stainless steel because it don't rust as easy here in south Florida.

Lee F.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:48 AM
I solder O27 tubular rail easily with a 60-watt iron.  I have been using the same 5-pound roll of 60-40 solder for at least 25 years; and it has not changed at all.

Bob Nelson

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