Here I go, throwing a rock in the pond again.
My favorite toy train (real, honest-to-Murgatroyd tinplate, aka galvanized steel) manufacturer of the 1960's was TER, later known as Endo.
Of course, my layout is HOj (Japanese prototype, nominally 1:80 scale, running on HO gauge 16.5mm track.) For about US $1.50 per car, TER provided me a huge freight car roster (1/700th of the prototype's) at a price that I could afford, at a time when my desire to model what I was seeing full scale in Japan had become set in stone.
Granted that TER cars are little more than little tin boxes with a wheel at each corner, and that they originally came equipped with Baker couplers. They pass the three foot test for appearance, and can be re-couplered and detailed easily enough. They still form the backbone of my rolling stock collection. I'm not about to sell, trade or scrap them.
A lot of American rails started with Lionel (myself included.) I wonder how many Japanese hobbyists look back fondly on their childhood Endo empires.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
A few years ago I would have simply answered Lionel. I didn't own any other brand then and only postwar stuff. Since then, al lot has changed. I grew into a bigger layout, with much more locomotives and learned how to import trains from the USA instead of buying them now and then as ramshackles on swapmeets. I now have a varaity of Lionel, Williams, K-line and MTH, and all of them have their pro's and con's.
Lionel's biggest pro is their name and construction, but I only have older type loco's with a mpc era as the newest. (a brandnew berkshire with Railsounds is on it's way to the netherlands, that will be the first new Lionel I've ever bought!), huge detail even on the lower end models and a lot of innovative idea's. Their Con is mainly the price of new stuff. Luckily with the Berkshire and now also a very nice loking Mikado they manage to produce a decent train for nice money. (in car terms: Mercedes)
K-line's biggest pro is their price. An mp15 does about 90 bucks and is a very good engine (after a bit of tinkering) for the money with a lot of diecast. Con is mainly the quality; couplers don't always work, plastic is used on places where I would like to see diecast etc. But the price equals the discomfort about it a lot. (in car terms: Suzuki)
Williams pro is the simple price/quality balance they have. Their machines are rocksolid and bullet proof. Con's: Lack of normal sound (only prerecorded horn and bell with a set sequence is boring). But probably one (if not THE) best choise if you want a simple sturdy engine. (in car terms LADA or HUMMER)
MTH Pro Lots of detail, older proto 1 units are dirt cheap (even the premier ones) and offer a huge amount of fun! Their quality is great, even on the low-end items. Also a lot of innovation and very nice quality. Con's: Electronical problems with proto 1 and the way to operate it.(in car terms: BMW)
From all manufacturers I have experienced the past years operating the model railroad I can't point a real winner or a real loser. MTH and Lionel are my big favourites, since their detail and options are almost endless, but they cost a lot more then RMT or Williams.. K-line is gone and came back under Lionel.
I guess Lionel wins in my opinion with a snouthlength distance (so a photofinish) in front of MTH, due to their newest catalog and their way of marketing. (very interesting sets for the youngest Thomas fans and high end tmcc scale steamer with tmcc crane and 072 track and switches for the grownups, interesting add on sets and of course their christmass layouts which I can only see on youtube..)
So Lionel, but barely..
jaabat wrote: 3railguy wrote:Postwar Lionel for me. I like it simple, reliable, and rugged. I'll drink to that, John!
3railguy wrote:Postwar Lionel for me. I like it simple, reliable, and rugged.
Postwar Lionel for me. I like it simple, reliable, and rugged.
I'll drink to that, John!
a grassroots effort is taking shape before my eyes
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Good point Palallin! Well maybe it's not quality but construction features I'm thinking about.
I have a lot of K-Line S-2 switchers. They have DC truck mounted can motors and plastic truck sides, but they are decent running as-is locos, and run/look better when I get done making my standard changes and improvements. Same for the Lionel Industrial Switcher: all plastic. But I make improvements: add lights, windows, handrails, decorative horn, repaint, and add weight - then they run as good as anything I own.
Now I know some would be against MTH using plastic truck sides on their Rugged Rails locos for example. BUT if it would get the price down, it's a compromise I can live with.
Of course, this might not be fair on a business level because they don't have the tooling costs, but RMT sells several decent running and looking locos for under $70 list. The Lionel Conrail U36B that I speak of was a decent looking loco and the only Lionel loco I have really wanted in years. But for a single motor at $140 list, when even a Lionel Value-Added dealer told me it wasn't worth it....hmmm. That dealer told me the only reason that loco wouldn't be a blowout is because it was the only Lionel Conrail starter end loco offered in the past 20 eyars and it was selling well for the roadname, not for the quality of the locomotive features. Had that same loco been priced less, I might have considered it. But even at Charlie Ro's price of $90, it was still too much for a single motored diesel. I could do better with Williams and RMT.
I like Lionel. But I want to pay for a train, not the name or the lawyer's fees or tooling costs for scale locos I will never buyl. I know those factors all play into Lionel's pricing.
So like said by someone else, I look for price versus the quality for that price. And I look for non-scale size. I'd like it if the Lionel name was on the box, but I find too often for me, it is not. The best value for a guy like me is a Lionel train set. And it's been 13 years since Lionel put out a starter Conrail set, 16 years for CSX. And there has never been one in Norfolk Southern or BNSF.
I don't mind repainting, but it'd be nice to own one Lionel loco that was in a road I wanted. Williams and RMT got it figured out. Maybe one day Lionel will too. And if according to the CTT survey, 35% of the market now uses TMCC or DCS, that still means the majority of 65% DOES NOT. You'd think they'd put a tiny little bit more effort into placating the majority of the market.
If Jerry Calabrese understands numbers as well as it's said he does, here's hoping he sees the value of not ignoring 65% any more. Every single Williams and RMT sale could potentially be a Lionel sale if only Lionel recognized the real majority of buyers in this hobby.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
brianel027 wrote: MTH has always been dead last for me. From the onset, Mike always claimed his Railking cars were not like the small shrimpy Lionel 027 cars in his advertising. Of course, I think MTH misses the point big time here... we 027 guys want and require smaller cars.
MTH has always been dead last for me. From the onset, Mike always claimed his Railking cars were not like the small shrimpy Lionel 027 cars in his advertising. Of course, I think MTH misses the point big time here... we 027 guys want and require smaller cars.
brianel027, do you do any full-scale O, and if so how does MTH stack up on that level?
Randy
As my grandmother always said: "That's why they make blue chevrolets and green chevrolets, everyone's taste differs." The choices when I was a kid were Lionel and American Flyer, and even though I had a Gilbert Chemistry set, all my trains were Lionel. Took a really long sabbatical, and when I came back Lionel was in a major quality slump. I was complaining at my local hobby shop that the hobby had stopped being train operating and become train maintenance, and the dude introduced me to Mike. I immediately fell in love, and even though I hear rumours that Lionel has solved some of their quality control problems, I haven't personally exposed myself to them in years--deriving most of my Lionel pleasure from repairing the crap they sold me in the eighties. It is absolutely amazing the number of things that can break on a late model Lionel.
So I guess I would have to answer MTH for reliability and innovation. My original MTH train is running around the christmas tree even as we speak, and the only maintenance it has ever had is a memory battery change every five years or so. Which reminds me, I just got notice last night that it is about due again.
I am more partial to Williams or RMT right now than any other manufacturer, the prices are low and the quality is great!
Atlas has good quality but is very expensive. MTH has good quality a little less expensive than Atlas.
Lionel has had some quality issues as far as I am concerned with their locomotives and track switches in the past 15 years.
Post war Lionel is great but out of production!
Lee F.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
brianel027 wrote: Many of us 027 guys can and do accept some reasonable compromises in quality in exchange for price and size.
Just one comment, Brian. I don't think you're compromising on quality. The compromises are in scale fidelity. Scale fidelity is NOT the same thing as quality, despite what some folks in this hooby--including manufacturers and product reviewers--would have us believe.
thor wrote:Lionel and I'm not even American born!
Marklin, and I wasn't even born across the pond!
Worldwide, the best known and longest existing name in toy and model trains!
mpzpw3 wrote:My lame reply: any one of them that makes what I am interested in at a price I can afford. I just don't have any brand loyalties. Hard to imagine not buying something I want just because company YYY makes it, and not company AAA.
Couldn't have said it any better !!!!
Don
The orginal American Flyer which is what I grew up with. I enjoy watching the older trains and accesories of my child hood. They have a fasanation to me that the newer trains do not have.
For me when I re-entered the hobby some 16 years ago, K-Line was number one, and the clear majority of my brnad new purchases were K-Line. I have no allegiances though and will buy from anyone who happens to make something small enough without the electronic gizmos that looks right on my layout.
I do own many of the prior Industrial Rail company cars and am hoping Atlas wakes up and starts making some IR cars that haven't been made by someone else in recent years - and finally gets some current modern roads on the cars.
I do like the current Lionel starter cars as they have improved greatly in quality. The selection and quality of the lower end locos still leaves much to be desired. After the single motored Conrail U36B offering from 4 years ago (when all others have come with dual motors for the same price) I said I would never buy another new Lionel loco until that Conrail one is offered again (or a NS one) at the same price point with dual motors. And I will stick to my words, and I'm sure Lionel will make this pretty easy for me to do too. Besides, there's always more affordable postwar and MPC stuff.
And I think the award for best company of last year goes to RMT, and I suspect they will be in the running for my award this year too. Z-stuff is another innovative company with some very cool products for train layouts... just as important as the trains themselves. I have their little block signals and love them. What a sinch to hook up and use.
MTH has always been dead last for me. From the onset, Mike always claimed his Railking cars were not like the small shrimpy Lionel 027 cars in his advertising. Of course, I think MTH misses the point big time here... we 027 guys want and require smaller cars. Early on I'd be in a hobby shop and would hear other guys saying the same exact things I was thinking: these Railking cars are nice and well priced, but are too darn BIG! Rugged Rails was an afterthought to the Industrial Rail threat and the Rugged Rails line since has been pretty much left to languish. Nearly all the Rugged Rails SD90MACS cataloged with horn only and no electronics were cancelled. So MTH doesn't even want to make anything I can buy. Consequently, not for quality or price, but for being too large, I own scant very little by MTH.
I do though want to thank MTH for at least tooling up that last former Railking turned Rugged Rails SD90MAC. That is one darn nice looking loco that on a size level is everything I have been asking for: shortern length and a height of 3.5 inches so it doesn't tower above my other cars. Now if MTH will only make them. I would even buy one with plastic truck sides if they could get the price down. And given that MTH uses a vertical larger DC motor, I'd be willing to give MTH a chance on this model even if it had just one single motor.
Again, I think MTH misses the point on some of these smaller products. Many of us 027 guys can and do accept some reasonable compromises in quality in exchange for price and size. The success of the RMT BEEP bears me out big time on this point.
Lionel. My favorite flavor for O is MPC followed by LTI. Marx, in its 8-wheel, plastic varieties comes next. They are my favorites because my first trains were Marx and MPC. I still have them. They still run like champs. Of the modern companies, Atlas is the most intriguing to me, though I have yet to indulge.
That said, I also find in my heart a tie between Lionel and IVES for prewar Standard/Wide Gauge. Lionel created it. IVES made a great go of it in a tough spot. (Oddly, I have little interest in prewar, tinplate O.)
Lionel is my sentimental choice since that's what I grew up with. I always thought that American Flyer was pretty cool back then, but I never owned any Flyer as a child. It was Lionel that later drew me back into the toy train hobby and that's why I buy mostly Lionel Post War Celebration stuff now. It takes me back to my roots.
Jim
otftch wrote: LIONEL.The're what I started with and have always enjoyed. Ed
LIONEL.The're what I started with and have always enjoyed.
Ed
Yep, I feel the same way.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
I have to agree,
Good ole' American made LIONEL Trains.And American made Marx and Flyer.
I have purchased some overseas LIONEL, as well as other makes.But my favorite still is quality made in the U.S.A. .
Collin ,operator of the " Eastern Kentucky & Ohio R.R."
THE LIONEL CORPORATION, NEW YORK, NY, USA.
May you rest in peace. We miss you!!!
No favorite at all. They all are just fine, and all of them produce great products, along with an occasional dud. I have locomotives and cars from ALL of the major (and not so major) O gauge manufacturers in my collection, and will continue buying based on specific product, not on maker. I have a sentimental attachment to Lionel because that's the brand I grew up with in the 50s, but that in no way influences my purchases of contemporary trains.
I buy trains that I like, in the roadnames I like, no matter who makes them. I will NEVER buy into that blind brand loyalty thing because that would simply restrict me from obtaining the variety of products that best meet my hobby interests and needs.
I'm perfectly content to leave the banner waving to others.
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