lionel direction change

[msimpson62]

Hi All well you all have gaven me something to think about. i have noticed that ac power makes the engines run better then with dc. the switchers are like the lionel 8670s. it seems to me that the 8111 should get a e unit and convert the dc switchers to ac with a board 0103-001, I dont think they will pull as much power as the current ac engines do because they will be pulling 3 or 4 empty cars, short distances. "am i thinking the right way ?" i have the first module almost done, and the second one will be the one for the switchers (starting to build in feb.)

Thanks

mitch

[ADCX Rob]

If I anm not mistaken that 103-1(600-103-1) electronic reverse unit is the circuit board type being used in current lower end Lionel locos with single or dual can DC motors. I have talked with Jeff - the Train Tender - in the past and this circuit board reverse unit IS NOT powerful enough to work in the locos with AC opern frame motors that Mitch mentioned...

This is very true.

My mention of the 103-1(600-103-1) electronic reverse unit was in response to Mitch's:

...the two newer switchers im getting are only dc thats why i need to get the oldies changed over...

where he indicates he's getting new locos that are DC only.  I was trying to help him preserve the control fuctionality of keeping AC on the track.

Sorry for the confusion.

Rob 

[brianel027]

If I anm not mistaken that 103-1(600-103-1) electronic reverse unit is the circuit board type being used in current lower end Lionel locos with single or dual can DC motors. I have talked with Jeff - the Train Tender - in the past and this circuit board reverse unit IS NOT powerful enough to work in the locos with AC opern frame motors that Mitch mentioned. The circuit board will burn out. You will need to use a more powerful circuit board reverse unit, such as the ones made by Dallee or maybe you can the Williams version from their parts department. The Dallee version is around $45 and I would imagine the Williams one may not be too far off, provided they have it available.

Buying a used mechanical e-unit or a rebuilt one would actually be cheaper in this case over the more powerful circuit board ones. When I say more powerful, I mean they have the capacity to handle the heavier electrical load running though them to be used with the open frame AC motors.

To see the difference, put a DC motored loco on the track (one with no circuit board unit in it) and see how little current it takes to move the thing. Now do the same thing with any MPC era or poastwar loco with an open frame motor... it takes a lot more current.

On my current set up, at 11 volts with the B-U setting, my DC can motored engines will be really moving, though they do not fly off the track unless running alone. On the other hand, my NW-2 switcher for example, just moves along at a nice even slower pace at the same voltage. Although every loco is a little different, basically the AC open frame motor needs more current. I don't believe those Lionel circuit board units will do the trick in this case.

If any one has tried this move with these boards and had it work, I'd love to hear about it.

[lionelsoni]

We're talking about several different things here.  The first is adding e-units to locomotives that apparently don't already have them.  That can be done whether they are to run on AC or DC, if you can find the room inside the locomotives.

The second is running on DC.  Virtually every locomotive Lionel made will run on DC as well as AC without any modification.  In fact, the earliest ones were typically run only on DC.  The whistle function will be lost, as Brianel noted; but otherwise they should do just fine.

The third is running on DC and using the DC polarity to control direction, the way scale modelers do.  This is easy to do, as Daan described, and requires only the addition of a bridge rectifier to a universal motor (replacing the e-unit or reversing switch if any), or removal of other circuitry and direct wiring to the track for can-motor locomotives.  The result is a locomotive that runs only on DC.

When converting a double-field-motor or a two-can-motor locomotive to DC, it is worthwhile to consider as well the possibility of wiring the field coils or the motors, respectively, in series for better low-speed operation.

[ADCX Rob]

The 3 engines i would like to change over are Lionel NW-2 DT&I #8111 , steam engine #8601 and steam engine #8040. they came from the early 70s (70-74) i think. the #8111 is the one i would really like to get switched over because i use it in the yard to move the cars around and switching it by hand is getting old. #801 just pulls passenger cars and backs very little. #8040 backs alot when i use it in the yard when im in the steam mood. the two newer switchers im getting are only dc thats why i need to get the oldies changed over.

thanks for the input

mitch

You can use all 3 of these engines on DC w/o any problems.

For the 8040 & the 8601, the  2 position reverse unit will be a direct replacement for the switch.  The part number is 8302-55.  The 3 position is a more difficult retrofit(space considerations) using only one of the 2 field coils(some folks use both).

You can also install a 2 or 3 position reversing unit in your 8111.  Although many of them came with the direction switch like yours, mine came with a 2 position, I installed a 3 position & operating couplers in 1972 or 1973 and have been using it this way since new.  It's a nice early MPC piece.

The  2 position will be a direct replacement for the switch, & a 3 position is an easy retrofit using only one of the 2 field coils(some folks use both).

Instead of converting your layout to DC, you might look at installing 3 position reversing units with bridge rectifiers in your "new" switchers(you don't mention brand or models).  This will preserve the neutral position for operating accessories, switches, uncoupling, etc. 

Another option is to install a complete 103-1(600-103-1) electronic reverse unit in the DC locos which will also give you F-N-R.  I found them for $13.00 at The Train Tender - quite a bit less than what E-units are selling for now.

Rob 

 

[msimpson62]

The 3 engines i would like to change over are Lionel NW-2 DT&I #8111 , steam engine #8601 and steam engine #8040. they came from the early 70s (70-74) i think. the #8111 is the one i would really like to get switched over because i use it in the yard to move the cars around and switching it by hand is getting old. #801 just pulls passenger cars and backs very little. #8040 backs alot when i use it in the yard when im in the steam mood. the two newer switchers im getting are only dc thats why i need to get the oldies changed over.

thanks for the input

mitch

[daan]

Any AC motor with brushes will run on DC without problems. You can make them reverse easily  by only connecting the brushes through a full bridge rectifier and the fieldcoil without rectifier to the tracks. That way polarity will change only on the fieldcoil and not on the rotor when polarity is changed, resulting in direction change. (motors with 2 field coils have to be changed a bit, because only one field coil can be used.) The mechanical e-unit can be removed.

It's not that difficult. But AC motors have less cooling on DC and draw more current on DC then a can motor. Can motors are very easy, just get rid of the e-unit and connect the motor direct to track current.

2 disadvantages is my opinion. 1: loss of the neutral position, 2: no commands (so no sounds or coilcouplers) unless you install some sort of dcc (see the h0 section for brands used on digital DC layouts).

Advantage is that it's easier to change direction (just reversing polarity on the transformer output) and an easier locomotive construction (the rectifier part is in the transformer, not in the locomotive).

I don't know about the lifetime of AC motors on DC, Märklin doesn't hold that great, but that has to do with the brush material and not with the motor itself.

[brianel027]

Mitch, I have been running my layout on DC current for almost 2 years and I love it. I probably will never go back to AC current again. The big plus for me, is the lower-end types of locos I have run so much better and smoother on DC current, though I also totally remove the circuit board reverse units and rectifier circuitry.

With circuit boards removed I can add weight to many locos. My revamped Lionel Industrial Switchers will now pull a dozens cars no sweat and can pull up to 25 on level track.

Lionel did make at one time a conversion box (basically a full wave bridge rectifier and a direction switch) so that you can use any Lionel AC transformer and turn it into DC output. I made my own version of this and use my ever reliable and always recommended Lionel 1033, which is the very best transformer they ever made.

AC motors without either somekind of mechanical e-unit or electronic one though will run in ONLY one direction even on DC current. I have a few older postwar and MPC locos with the older electro-mechanical e-units and I run those locos on my layout as is. I think they also run a little smoother and more quietyly. Though the e-unit wants to lurch a little when I change direction (because of the DC current), but I've figured out how to compensate for this by the way I run the loco. When I change direction, I bring up the power very slowly until I hear the mechanical e-unit engage, thereby eliminating the lurch that happens when you keep the power up higher and just hit the direction lever on the transformer.

The other disadvantage (not for me though) of DC current is that you cannot have on-track sound like Railsounds, whistles and horns.... they must all be off board and trackside. Not biggie for me. I removed a Lionel air whistle from a steam tender and mounted it into a Plasticville Railside Shanty building... it works like a charm and sounds just fine.

Plus I have an MRC Sound Station which is a true $$$$ bargain for sounds. If Lionel had made that instead of MRC, I guarantee you that thing would be selling like hotcakes. Even by MRC, they seem to be doing well and I've noticed have been sold out several times at a mfger. level. For $50 you can't go wrong, plus it's a real kid pleaser too. Why waste the extra money on Railsounds?

[jimhaleyscomet]

DC is a whole different ball game and I do not know all the mods necessary to make it work.  Your a/c engine should reverse if you cut power to the engine and then restart.  Some engines have no reverse unit, some go forward - neutral - reverse - neutral... and some do not have neutral and just go forward or backward. Some transformers need a load on the train circuit (like a lighted passenger car or caboose) to get the e unit to reverse.  

 If there is just one switch on an a/c engine, it usually is to turn reversing off.   

 Please let us know your engine manufacture and number and you can get more help here.

 

Jim H 

[msimpson62]

I have started back into my lionel 027 trains and would like to know if there is a easy way to change the ac motors to dc so that forward and reverse can be controlled at the transformer. i have to move the switch on the engine now to change it. i am getting ready to replace the old ac 4050 transformers with dc ones. can the motors be rewired ? can i put e-units on them, which ones and how do they wire up. any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

 thanks

Mitch