Question about Pre War 803 Hopper

[AKKevinT]

I was wondering if anyone out there can answer a question I have about a pre war Lionel  tinplate hopper I have. It is a dark green 803 hopper and it looks to me like this model did not have ladders for the sides like the lighter green versions of the 803 do. There are no ladder knockouts on the hopper support rails at the end of the car like I have seen on the cars that do have ladders. 

Can someone enlighten me about if this car. Is it complete or is it missing ladders?

Thanks folks. 

Kevin T. 

[LL675]

I've never seen one that dark of green myself. Is there a chance it was repainted and the ladder holes filled in?

[envfocus]

I collect the prewar 800 series 4-wheel freight cars, so here is what I know.  First and foremost, your car is complete without ladders.  The 803 hopper car was introduced in 1923.  Yours has stamped letters and journals, which were not offered until 1925.  The ladder and brake wheels were not added until 1927.  If you look in Lionel catalogs, ladders did not show up until 1929 and by then brass nameplates replaced the stamping.  Its more common to find stamped hoppers without ladders than with.  Hope this helps.

[AKKevinT]

LL675: Thank you for raising the question about the repainting. I am pretty sure this is the original lionel paint and that is what made me think it was different from other 803's I have seen with lighter colored green paint and with ladders added.

Roger: Thank you for confirming my guess that this car did not come with a ladder. Your knowledge of Pre War Lionel is impressive. I know very little about this era of Lionel and I am more interested in Post War Lionel. I have three Pre War cars (902-gondola and 807 caboose-red with green top) that I am considering selling since they sit in box wrapped up all the time I figure they would be better off in the hands of someone who appreciates Pre War more than I do. I personally like these with their original paint but I guess they would be very good candidates for restoration. They have no rust and no dings, the bodies are in very nice shape. The 803 is in the roughest shape of the three the other two are in really pretty nice condition.

Thanks again for the history and information.

Kevin T.