Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
I don't get it. Your initial comment makes it sound like you are concerned over how many low end units Lionel is producing, then it appears you want more low end models.
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
CSXect wrote:It is an failure to articulate I have the same problem myself at times he seems to be concerned that Lionel is not puting out enough low priced low end units. K-line filled this gap nicely but look what happened to them. Atlas Industrail rail line is a nice o-27 line of rolling stock.
I think you got his intent correct, but I am not sure. My comment is regarding Industrial Rail. Atlas usually gets it right, but I think they missed it with their intended first loco. It is to be an Atlantic. With only freight cars in their line, why bring out an Atlantic. Can't figure his out.
It IS an interesting situation for sure. From what I have read on the forum, most folks clamor after the cheapy...errr...I mean "lower end" offerings. But if that is the case, and Lionel is making most of their $$$ selling the budget sets, why are they still coming out with those awesome monster locos like the GG-1 and Big Boy?? SOMEBODY has to be buying them (besides me). And I am NOT complaining about the high priced models. I LOVE them!!!!
Dep
Virginian Railroad
If you really want a good value, buy the dated stuff that was made 5 years ago. Lots of good deals out there. I've seen MIB primo stuff go on ebay for dirt cheap and it ain't just Lionel.
As far as today's stuff goes, the proportions they make are what sells. The low end engines are not as popular as we'd like because they have single axel drive, the motor shows through the windows, no command control, no smoke, fairy tale roadnames, etc, etc. You can't make a $400 engine and sell it for $200. People are content to buy one or two engines a year and get all the features verses four engines a year without it all.
Despite my tagline, I think Lionel has a winner with the conventional tunnel motor. Same goes for the recently announced Trainman Gator.
I wish Bachman would do Spectrum 3 rail scale plastic steam. They do it well with On30, HO, and N at fantastic prices.
I think there are some basic points to consider that haven't been mentioned here. First off, no company will intentionally make something that they don't think will sell. I'm beginning to see a very slow trend beginning where the companies are slowly beginning to focus more towards their strong points and biggest audience. MTH, for example seems to be focusing more on the high end. Railking has gone scale with the utilization of the previously made Premiere line tooling, which became sub-par with the newer offerings from Lionel, K-Line and Atlas. The semi-scale Railking line has been reduced dramatically and some of those locos moved to the Rugged Rails line - which it seems MTH maintains only so they can say they have something on the low end.
Lionel has more name recognition and so they seem to be focusing a little more heavily on the starter market, where they alone are best able to make the effort work. But that's not to say that MTH doesn't and won't have starter sets or Lionel won't have high end items.
The companies have gone out on a limb a number of times in recent years, developing costly new items which bring in a minimal financial return. But they do this for prestige. Remember, Lionel and MTH are still very much at war with each other. They've both spent large sums of money towards this end, not just in court but with products. Track and electronic features designed to be as incompatible as possible. Repitition of locomotive types in order to please their "one-brand only" customers, or to put in a jab or dig at the other company. The MTH lawyer building comes to mind as a perfect example of a none-too-sublte jab.
Lionel has a great deal invested in TMCC and now Legacy. They're not just going to forget about it even if sales are lackluster... they have too much riding on it. Why, Lionel is ithe industry leader according to their own press releases, but don't mention those to the die-hard MTH fan.
Same goes for MTH... the've poured millions into DCS, which it is entirely possible they have not made back yet. But like one of those old western movies where the two cowboys get into their corners with guns drawn, neither one is backing down, even if the end result will be a great loss for one of them: each one is counting on the other guy failing.
So I don't believe it is entirely market demand driving all the new high end products. The Acela received enough wholesale orders to get it made. Lionel got their money, but there are still dealers with Acela's for sale, still waiting for their money. Same is true for many high end products that get made. So long as the wholesalers and distributors guarantee enough money for production, the item gets made. But that doeswn't necessarily mean the item gets sold. MTH is very quick on the "cancellation button" if a product fails to garner enough pre-orders, even though many on the forums "appear" to want these items. Saying you want some loco on a train forum and shelling out the deposit bucks are two differing things.
The 3rail train market is more fragmented and diverse than ever before. To some degree there are markets for cheapie locos as well as high end ones. I think there are some fine lines as to the train companies figuring the appropriate level of features/quality versus retail price. As mentioned above, on the higher end, Atlas has had some real success with the TrainMan line: reasonable price with an acceptable level of detail for the scale enthusiast. On the other side, RMT has had some real success with the cheapie loco, the BEEP: reasonable price with an acceptable level of quality for the budget wary modeler. Lionel has the bare-bones RS-3, but that in no way measures up to the quality of the BEEP. So there's an example of how going too cheap backfired for Lionel.
I think the real key is balance, and that's always a tough thing to attain.
The low end is important for the introductory and budget customer, and the high end is important to the now established scale enthusiast modeler. In the past when Lionel was practically the only company, it was more possible for them to try and be all things to all people... some would say Lionel could basically dictate what folks could buy. Then came K-Line and then later with MTH, the big changes started happening.
But as K-Line found out, it is a tough order for one company with limited finances to be all things to all people. I'm sure behind closed doors of the finance meetings, Lionel and MTH are figuring this out too, even though neither may publically say so.
And now there's the low end challenge from RMT. And Atlas is positioning themselves to (or at least try to) become a more rounded out product company, with the purchase of the IR tooling and the success of the TrainMan line. Even Atlas has figured out what Lionel sometimes seems to forget, that realizing not every high end modeler has unlimited money to spend on trains.
Interesting times for sure. And judgement day for the first big MTH/Lionel lawsuit is approaching - which could potentially bring more big changes that some of us will not be happy with.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
My two cents: Some of us are "players", some are "collectors" and some of us are in between.
Our 'budgets', 'space' and 'dreams' often dictate in which class we find ourselves.
The variety of choices (price, detail, size, etc.) makes this a great hobby. After all is said and done, it is still, to me, only a "hobby" and a very enjoyable one at that. Thanks for asking.
This is just from the 2006 catalog
Docksider, O-4-0 switcher, Baby Berk (ok stretching it a little, MSRP $350), Mikado, and I'm not including the basic starter set (4-4-2) steam engine.
GP-9, Missile Launcher, RS-3, GP-20, SD-60, FT, not including the speeders.
3railguy wrote: If you really want a good value, buy the dated stuff that was made 5 years ago. Lots of good deals out there. I've seen MIB primo stuff go on ebay for dirt cheap and it ain't just Lionel.
Thats my thinking too. There is so much older, yet new and unused, train product out there itss mind boggling. In the last year I have purchased MTH engines, one Premier, for 100 or less on e-bay. Just saw one the other day sell for $89 with PS2.
So to tell you the truth I dont pay much attention to the new products coming out, I'm looking at my catalogs from 5 and 6 years ago and matching it up to whats selling on e-bay.
Allan Miller wrote:There is plenty of stuff out there in both lower end and high end toy trains. I honestly don't see how anyone can feel that one end or the other is being short-changed or neglected. If anything, there's already too much of everything available, in every price range.
Well said Allan. There are literally TONS of stuff, both current and 5 years old or older that are available. As far as all the lawsuit BS of Lionel vs MTH...I will quote from a post Allan also made a while back:
"It's always been kind of nice to come to this MR forum to get away from all (or at least most of) the legal nonsense that pollutes the three-rail O scale world--most of which consists of rants posted by passionately biased folks who don't know a darn thing about what's really going on one way or another and, more importantly, have absolutely no role in the final outcome."
Geez that is a great comment!
Another
I tend to cruise through e-bay way too much. It seems that even some of the older (Post war) things are affordable. Couple that with my Hobby Lobby 40%, and I have a decent mix of trains. I would love to have a GG1, but at $200+, that a little rich. I can buy a set for just over $125 (pennsy flyer), my 2037 was about $85 (with my repairs), my Jersey Central MPC was $25(!). Yup I look for a bargain, but there are things out there that are affordable. My most expensive was my 2002 Fire Rescue set that cost me $350 (thank God for my LHS, as he let me pay on it for 3 months). Most of the new stuff runs $40-$100 (single cars). Used will do just fine for now!!
anjdevil2 wrote: Another I would love to have a GG1, but at $200+, that a little rich.
I would love to have a GG1, but at $200+, that a little rich.
Heh...if that seems rich, price Lionel's NEW GG1s. They are to scale and the price shows it. Nice stuff but they are not made for the "casual buyer".
anjdevil2 wrote:Another I tend to cruise through e-bay way too much. It seems that even some of the older (Post war) things are affordable. Couple that with my Hobby Lobby 40%, and I have a decent mix of trains. I would love to have a GG1, but at $200+, that a little rich. I can buy a set for just over $125 (pennsy flyer), my 2037 was about $85 (with my repairs), my Jersey Central MPC was $25(!). Yup I look for a bargain, but there are things out there that are affordable. My most expensive was my 2002 Fire Rescue set that cost me $350 (thank God for my LHS, as he let me pay on it for 3 months). Most of the new stuff runs $40-$100 (single cars). Used will do just fine for now!!
Williams frequently sells GG1s for $149 and dealers sell them for $139. Look up Justrains.com and see what they are selling them for. They offer free shipping on many items.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Anj: If you get some extra cash, this place will sell you a Williams GG-1 with SOUND installed:
http://yorktrains.com/WilliamsTrains/locos/ScaleGG1.htm
It's scale so tyou'll need 072 curves.
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