I saw this on another forum and was a bit surprised...opinions?

[Deputy]

Dep: People are buying engines for 2-500 dollars for these effects and don't care where the sound come from is foolish. Those tiny little squeaky speakers sound terrible ... only in my opinion maybe . Sound like mickey mouse with a cold. Did ya ever hear of speakers in different stations via toggle switches if that's a real problem . You must have one huge layout ! The train sounds do great but the announcements have alot to be desired. Plus the same old ones over and over. MULTIPLE STATIONS ON A 4X8 LAYOUT what scale is it .... ultra mini micro ? I still can't figure out what you mean by "this is not HO " I went all " O" guage ... toy trains this is ??? You mean windups ?

Ole Timer: My point was we are NOT talking about super-realistic replica trains here. Things have to be compromised for practicality. It's a lot more PRACTICAL to have the station effects come FROM the train itself, which is already wired for power. Plus you have more than just station sounds coming from the train.You must not be that old. I remember when the only sound coming from a train was the sound of metal wheels on metal tracks. I remember when Lionel had ONE whistle for EVERY train and they all sounded EXACTLY the same because they were the EXACT same whistle. The horns on the GG-1 had the EXACT same horn as the F-3 and that was WAY off for a GG-1. Those tiny little speakers sound pretty dang good to me. I don't need a gigantic speaker  thumping like some rolling Japanese boom box. Have you even HEARD the sounds coming from the more expensive ($200-$500 is NOT very expensive nowadays) Lionel or MTH trains of today???  

Dep

[Ole Timer]

Dep:
People are buying engines for 2-500 dollars for these effects and don't care where the sound come from is foolish. Those tiny little squeaky speakers sound terrible ... only in my opinion maybe . Sound like mickey mouse with a cold. Did ya ever hear of speakers in different stations via toggle switches if that's a real problem . You must have one huge layout ! The train sounds do great but the announcements have alot to be desired. Plus the same old ones over and over. MULTIPLE STATIONS ON A 4X8 LAYOUT what scale is it .... ultra mini micro ? I still can't figure out what you mean by "this is not HO " I went all " O" guage ... toy trains this is ??? You mean windups ?

[Smoke Stack Lightnin']

With regards to whistles, IMHO, both DCS and TMCC have some winners and losers, but some TMCC have echo as if reverberating through a valley.  I have a lot of MTH engines, but none have this feature.  Although DCS has more overall sound features, I think Lionel has the edge with overall quality.  Another example (IMHO) would be DCS "clickity-clack vs. the throatier, richer sounding Lionel Diner Car clickity-clack.

Rich F.  

[chuck]

Z-Stuff makes a very nice passenger station announcement system that is not tied to a locomotive or sound car or a particular vendors control system.  It uses optical sensors and reads the car/train id from bar codes you place on the bottom of a car.  It can also sense which direction the car/train is going so the announcements can match.

http://www.z-stuff.net/DZ-1200.htm

[Deputy]

Have many of you ridden a real train ? The boarding ... destination and departure announcements DO NOT come from the engine . I see many who want realism and these come from the speaker in and outside the station .... none to date have any on their engines or never did ! You want realistic effects go the whole nine yards and put a speaker in your station or in the room and either have a mic/pa or recorded announcements come out of it . With the computer programs available today you can even add reverb to make them sound like the real deal !

So if I have multiple stations on a 4X8 sheet of plywood I have to install sound devices in EACH station? I don't think so. A lot easier (and cheaper) to have it on the train. This is NOT HO, this is toy trains, and I doubt many are worried about WHERE the sounds are coming from. Heck, Lionel sells boxcars and passenger cars with the sounds in them anyway. As long as it comes from the area the train is located at, that's good enough.

I think train makers put them in locos because that's where all the electronics are located at. Cheaper to do it that way. A boxcar with trainsounds sells for around $80. That's getting close to the price of a cheap locomotive.

Dep
P.S. Yes, I've ridden on real trains.

 

[Deputy]

And in the 21st century its normal that you have to buy a special apparatus which is about as expensive as the locomotive itself in order to operate something simple as coil couplers?

It's not about the money in my case, also not about if I can use it in europe, but it's about the normality of acceptance that you need to spend more money on something in order to get about the same result.

What if the light switch in your ford explorer would have cost you an additional $20.000? Would you say to yourself, "Hey, that's normal, it's the 21st century??"

But probably it's just me getting behind..

Daan: you've got to make up your mind. You say you LIKE the simple stuff, then you gripe when you have to pay extra to do the optional stuff. Do you REALLY think Lionel or MTH is going to give away technology that was VERY expensive to develop? Wait...actually, Lionel DID JUST THAT!!!! I have a NYC train set that CAME WITH a TMCC cab controller (Lionel 11914 NYC GP-9 Command Control Freight Set). All I had to buy was the Command Base ($79) and presto...I had entered the 21st Century
You are making a BIG MISTAKE using auto industry comparisons to win your
point. Extra cost items that are linked to other extra cost items are quite common. You will often see the note... *requires option C6985 and tire option LT60x15 on car lists. Do we feel ripped off? Not really. The items are made to work together as a package. So if the self-dimming lights had cost an extra $20, I would have gladly forked it over. Note that the TMCC stuff is ALL optional and not required for normal operation of the train. Something I learned a long time ago...nothin's for nothin. Oh yeah, and "if you want to dance to the music, you gotta pay the piper".

Dep

[Ole Timer]

Have many of you ridden a real train ? The boarding ... destination and departure announcements DO NOT come from the engine . I see many who want realism and these come from the speaker in and outside the station .... none to date have any on their engines or never did ! You want realistic effects go the whole nine yards and put a speaker in your station or in the room and either have a mic/pa or recorded announcements come out of it . With the computer programs available today you can even add reverb to make them sound like the real deal !

[brianel027]

Ah, how things have changed... whether for the better depends is a matter of debate. We have all these computer and digital enhancements to the hobby and we also have the companies attemping to sue each other out of business over the very exact same advancements.

I quite frankly prefer the days when you made the train noises in your imagination, kinda like we all day way back when, in the days when we were really kids. Instead of now where so much of the adult market is made up of adults who behave like children, which in my estimation, is far less forgiveable than children acting like children.

By the way deputy, you are right when you say most folks do not have monster sized layouts. But reading the posts on these train forums are extraordinarily deceiving. The statistics and sales plainly show that command users of any system are still in the VAST minority of participants in the hobby. Lionel's last publishjed estimates put it at less than 25%, and that's after a full decade of availabilty.

As far as the quote, "They bring to the toy train market what Neil Young brought to the concert stage....." it is extremely ironic that the one guy who has so much to do with the digital advancements in the train hobby is also one of the recording industry's outspoken opponents to digital recording - even though Neil is in the clear minority on this stance in the recording industry. Outside of his innovative use of wireless mics (Neil was one of the very first on that one), I have heard his live concert sound system is also a throwback to the past. Neil also likes 1950's vintage autos. Gee, why not some of the new ones with all the digital computer nonsense they put on cars these days? Ironic, huh.

Now if we could only get Neil to see that the past for the record industry is just as good as the past for the model train industry.

As for me, I'm sticking with my very affordable and vivid imagination and my reliable, never needs to be sent back to Lionel for repairs 1033 (unlike the CW). When I do desire digital sound, I have my MRC Sound Station 312 - and you can't beat the price on that one.

[daan]

And in the 21st century its normal that you have to buy a special apparatus which is about as expensive as the locomotive itself in order to operate something simple as coil couplers?

It's not about the money in my case, also not about if I can use it in europe, but it's about the normality of acceptance that you need to spend more money on something in order to get about the same result.

What if the light switch in your ford explorer would have cost you an additional $20.000? Would you say to yourself, "Hey, that's normal, it's the 21st century??"

But probably it's just me getting behind..

[Deputy]

daan: Turn on the lights?!?!?!?!!? It so happens my wife has a 2003 Ford Explorer and when it gets dark the lights turn on AUTOMATICALLY. C'mon daan, it's the 21st Century. I don't think Lionel and MTH designed the TMCC and DCS systems JUST for those with monstrous track layouts. The common thread on this forum is that most folks DON'T have monstrous layouts. Yet a good number of them are using the CAB-1 and MTH DCS systems on their layouts.

And I often hear the REALLY weak excuse that kids can't learn the remote control stuff. HOGWASH! If a kid can learn all the buttons and controls on a Nintendo or Playstation setup, the DCS and TMCC should be a snap.

I guess you have to define "big money". I don't see the prices of TMCC and DCS systems as being "exorbitant". Not considering the multitude of options it gives you. Put away $20 a month and it will be a very short time and you can buy either type of control system. 

As far as the limitations you have on using European power for your layouts...not much I can suggest for that without sounding like an "ugly American"

Dep

[daan]

Ok, it is easier to use, but for a small layout like most of us have, you're always in reach of the transformer. The controls of the protosound 1 engines are also not that difficult, just a few tricks you need to know and everything works like it should. It however doesn't require extra expensive equipment. Roco (european h0 manufacturer) has a solution in the form of simple and cheap partial controls. For some of their digitally controlled items they sell a joystick which gives the digital signals. The joystick is about 30 euro's and gives full operation on crane's and harbour equipment.

Of course any dcs or tmcc locomotive will run conventional quite well, with sound etc, but the couplers can't be operated, while it shouldn't be too hard to make a seperate, cheap controller to perform that, without having to buy the whole nine miles of stuff which costs big money.

Different crewtalks, different hornblows etc are not that interesting, but coupler operation would be nice. That is something that belongs to the basics of any machine and should be able to control on analog layouts too.

And to reply on the car-story, how would you feel if you pay a lot of $$ for a new ford explorer and needed an extra bunch of $$ to buy an optional apparatus if you want to turn on the lights?

[Deputy]

 

Protosound 1 units also don't require a special track to uncouple, have full sounds on slow speeds, but also don't require a DCS or TMCC setup, everything works with simple conventional controls. (to give an example, to fire the coupler, in neutral over 14 volts, push horn button twice, coupler opens)

No need for special tracks, no need for special additions on controls. That's why I don't understand why they now all need a special system to control the options that where accessible under conventional controls in the series 1.

"Simple conventional controls"...hmmm...the transformer controls may be simple, but the contortions you have to go through to activate a train control are hardly what I would define as "simple". Multiple presses of multiple buttons is hardy a KISS principle. Plus you are forced to remain behind the transformer ALL THE TIME to control any operations of your loco. I like to be able to walk around and get up close to see operating cars and get different views of the loco. Most operations with a TMCC or DCS require only 1-2 presses of a button. The only time you would need to have multiple presses of buttons is to program a feature or loco. Sometimes you just have to catch up with the modern world

Dep...wonders if guys are tearing off the fuel injection systems on their new cars and searching for an old carburetor???  

[daan]

With the new transformers being made running a steam locomotive at a slow speed and sounding the horn should no longer be a problem, then again you may need to step up to DCS or TMCC to get better sound from your trains.   The new MTH steam locomotive sounds very good to me, I have the 4-8-4 T1 Reading.  On the new MTH locomotives you can uncouple on the go, NO special track required any more, now if only the rest of your rolling stock had that feature.

If running post-war & MPC era trains you will still have the same problem that you mentioned at slow speeds.

Lee F.

Protosound 1 units also don't require a special track to uncouple, have full sounds on slow speeds, but also don't require a DCS or TMCC setup, everything works with simple conventional controls. (to give an example, to fire the coupler, in neutral over 14 volts, push horn button twice, coupler opens)

No need for special tracks, no need for special additions on controls. That's why I don't understand why they now all need a special system to control the options that where accessible under conventional controls in the series 1.

[daan]

..but what annoys me is that there is a delay between pressing the horn button and the actual horn blow. That elliminates the possibility to manually have different horn blasts. (short short long takes a whole round around the layout to perform and the time between the seperate blows is too long)

...

Daan, 
To get short blows from DCS you must program the Forward horn and/or Reverse horn commands to the 5 sticky buttons across the top (by adjusting the menu order or using the scroll arrow).  Then you  press one of those two buttons to to get short horn blasts. 

Hope this helps

Jim H

 

Hi Jim, Thanks for the advice, but I run conventional, no DCS or TMCC. The protosound 1 units don't require any extra addition to control everything, but the postwar style of triggering signals has a built in delay to prevent the system reacting on accidental signals on switches etc.

TMCC doesn't work on 50Hz, the only way to make it work would be using a 220AC-12DC transformer, an electronic 12vDC-120Vac converter and there select the 60Hz switch, then TMCC or DCS would work. (they work that way in the UK). I rather stick with a normal 220-18 volts AC märklin transformer and a simple homebuilt horn and bell button.

[jimhaleyscomet]

To get the best of Railsounds and MTH PS2.0 sounds run both! 

Jim H

[4kitties]

Hi all,

I concur with the delay problem and not being able to do short blasts easily.  I am sure MTH will deal with this in time.  At the moment, though, I have to give the nod to Lionel's whistle sounds, at least in their premium models.  I was absolutely blown away by the sounds of my N&W Class Y6b and Class J locos.  Years ago I rode behind the real 611 and 1218, from which I presume Lionel made their recordings, and the whistle sounds in these models still send chills up my back.  When I quill that whistle and close my eyes, I can imagine I'm at trackside watching a photo run-by of the real thing.  Any product that reaches me at that level, I guess its maker could call a success!

Joel

[wallyworld]

I agree with others that in some respects, that this is abit silly, but for the record I have a MTH K4 with Protosound and the whistle is far from the aforementioned peanut whistle variety..it sounds hoarse, like it needs some liquid cough drops..I have an MTH diesel as well, and it sounds to my subjective ears, just fine..as far as variable pitch, I could care less..

[ChiefEagles]

MTH and Lionel have good quality sounds.  My beef with MTH in the sounds are I have a MTH Niagara and a MTH Southern Cresent they both sound the same in the Chuff department and whistles.  As far as smoke is concerned MTH hands down cough cough.

laz57

Laz: Are those locos equipped with Protosound 2? I think those are the only type of locos that allow sound upgrades.

Dep

DEP, Yes they are PS2.  They are great pieces but sound exactly the same.

I like em but don't run them at the same time.

laz57

Exactly what I was saying.  Great engines but louzy sounds.  Hope they improve them. 

[chuck]

PS-2 sound set files are databases that have the sound elements as well as the control functions for the loco. The info is compressed to save space and each element has to reside at set memory locations to function properly. Editing a sound set would require making sure that the new elements fit in the specified space/location. If this was easy, they would have done something before now.

[laz 57]

MTH and Lionel have good quality sounds.  My beef with MTH in the sounds are I have a MTH Niagara and a MTH Southern Cresent they both sound the same in the Chuff department and whistles.  As far as smoke is concerned MTH hands down cough cough.

laz57

Laz: Are those locos equipped with Protosound 2? I think those are the only type of locos that allow sound upgrades.

Dep

DEP, Yes they are PS2.  They are great pieces but sound exactly the same.

I like em but don't run them at the same time.

laz57

[darianj]

I can see it now....Railsounds with BOSE music system speakers.  Then the new Christmas commercial from Lionel will be sound overdone by Paul Harvey.  "Was a time, that toy train whistles were, well, a let down.  Now Dr. Bose does it again, with Railsounds from Lionel.  They bring to the toy train market what Neil Young brought to the concert stage.....Increadible sound, that will have you nodding with approval, and looking for the real train heading down the rails"  and now...the rest of the story.

Dennis

[Deputy]

MTH and Lionel have good quality sounds.  My beef with MTH in the sounds are I have a MTH Niagara and a MTH Southern Cresent they both sound the same in the Chuff department and whistles.  As far as smoke is concerned MTH hands down cough cough.

laz57

Laz: Are those locos equipped with Protosound 2? I think those are the only type of locos that allow sound upgrades.

Dep

[Deputy]

I can see it now....Railsounds with BOSE music system speakers.  Then the new Christmas commercial from Lionel will be sound overdone by Paul Harvey.  "Was a time, that toy train whistles were, well, a let down.  Now Dr. Bose does it again, with Railsounds from Lionel.  They bring to the toy train market what Neil Young brought to the concert stage.....Increadible sound, that will have you nodding with approval, and looking for the real train heading down the rails"  and now...the rest of the story.

Dennis

I can't wait.

WOW!!! I'm setting aside some cash for that!!!! Surround-sound whistles and bells!!! YEAH!!!

Dep

 

[jefelectric]

I can see it now....Railsounds with BOSE music system speakers.  Then the new Christmas commercial from Lionel will be sound overdone by Paul Harvey.  "Was a time, that toy train whistles were, well, a let down.  Now Dr. Bose does it again, with Railsounds from Lionel.  They bring to the toy train market what Neil Young brought to the concert stage.....Increadible sound, that will have you nodding with approval, and looking for the real train heading down the rails"  and now...the rest of the story.

Dennis

I can't wait.

[laz 57]

MTH and Lionel have good quality sounds.  My beef with MTH in the sounds are I have a MTH Niagara and a MTH Southern Cresent they both sound the same in the Chuff department and whistles.  As far as smoke is concerned MTH hands down cough cough.

laz57

[dbaker48]

I'd like to talk into a microphone & hear it come out the train !!

Thanks, John

John,  You can do that with DCS, it has a mike built into the remote.  You can also use a separate microphone for better sound.

As I'm sure your aware, in addition you can actually do prerecorded stuff into the engine.  Plug in the iPod, cassette player whatever directly into the DCS and go through prodcast.  Adds some fun things especially for visitors, Orange Blossom Special or Christmas music coming from engine.  Even some personalized announcements a real hoot.  Even "Happy Birthday John"

[Deputy]

Speaking of chips, I can't wait to see the day that you put an SD Memory Chip into your engine and the crew says what you want them to say.  For example:  "Now leaving on Track 15, the National Limited with stops at Huntington, Parkersburg, Clarksburg, Harper's Ferry and Washington."

Many are hoping that the MTH upgrade will allow a "plug 'n play" upgrade chip to be installed. Either that, or downloadable improvements to the MTH sounds in addition to the factory-installed upgrade. We will have to wait and see

Dep

 

[dwiemer]

I can see it now....Railsounds with BOSE music system speakers.  Then the new Christmas commercial from Lionel will be sound overdone by Paul Harvey.  "Was a time, that toy train whistles were, well, a let down.  Now Dr. Bose does it again, with Railsounds from Lionel.  They bring to the toy train market what Neil Young brought to the concert stage.....Increadible sound, that will have you nodding with approval, and looking for the real train heading down the rails"  and now...the rest of the story.

Dennis

[jimhaleyscomet]

..but what annoys me is that there is a delay between pressing the horn button and the actual horn blow. That elliminates the possibility to manually have different horn blasts. (short short long takes a whole round around the layout to perform and the time between the seperate blows is too long)

...

Daan, 
To get short blows from DCS you must program the Forward horn and/or Reverse horn commands to the 5 sticky buttons across the top (by adjusting the menu order or using the scroll arrow).  Then you  press one of those two buttons to to get short horn blasts. 

Hope this helps

Jim H