Kids and trains: the tradeoffs between HO and O

[TomOnHudson]

Last year I built an HO scale layout for my boys, ages 5 & 7. It's a traditional 4x8 layout, set up in the basement. The idea was to loosely model the Hudson Highlands region of New York. And "loose" we are ... you'll see Thomas and Percy chugging through the tunnel at "Breakneck."

While the boys do have fun playing with the layout, they can't "play" the way they would like. Things break easily. It's difficult to re rail locos/cars. It's all too small. To accommodate longer passenger cars, I'll need to do some track work -- the layout is mostly 18" radius turns.. Oh, and somehow the turnouts are always thrown the wrong way; and getting those blocks selected correctly, while fun, seems more like math homework than play time. I've been considering DCC, to simplify operations, but I'm starting to feel like that old lady that swallowed a fly: will I soon be choking on the HO horse?

Don't get me wrong. It is a lot of fun, the kids really enjoy it, and we spend a lot of time together because of if it. The problem is, it's a _model_ yet they want it to be a _toy_ too. And I can't blame them.

So I began to reconsider my choice in "HO" , and wondered if I should have started them (my boys) off the way I did, with a Lionel O gauge set. After picking up a few Lionel catalogs and "toy train" magazines, and visiting a few public O gauge layouts, it became clear: the boys want to "go O".

Initially, my concern was space and price. An O gauge layout would seemingly take up more space, and certainly cost more.  But I've seen some very nice O gauge layouts in some pretty tight places. As for price, if it lasts longer, perhaps it's worth it.

So, here's my plan: build an O gauge layout and let the boys grow into it at their own pace. We'll start off simple: a couple of RTR sets from Lionel, and a track plan with two independent loops (one for each kid) on a single train board, perhaps with a couple of turnouts and some insulated track sections to allow trains to move between circuits.

However, before I execute this plan, I was hoping that others on this forum had experiences with the trade-offs between O and HO (in particular w.r.t. kids) that they would be willing to share.

Thanks,

Tom

[daan]

Well, most of the basics you already know. Don't buy engines with a lot of extra's. Simple and sturdy with may be a whistle/horn, but no further electronic gimmicks. May be you can get hands on some postwar locomotives, they are not that expensive, easy to repair and easy to operate. I would suggest tubular track to start with. Its easy to use, cheap, and very relyable. Later on you can add all kinds of gimmicks, better looking track and locomotives, but as long as it's meant as toy for unexperienced kids, I would try to keep it as simple and sturdy as possible.

Lots of fun!!

[Jumijo]

Tom,

I have 3 children under the age of 6. Together, we built a very small O27 layout in our basement and had a wonderful time doing so. The kids helped in may aspects of the layout's construction. They painted, glued, made tiny pumpkins from Playdough for a farm stand, planted trees, etc. We have 2 loops, so 2 children can run trains at any given time. I think that O was definitely the right choice for us.

HO is indeed more model than toy. Too much so for me and the kids. And although one can do what they want with their HO trains, the norm seems to be a lot of finicky detail and scale speed operations that don't do much to hold a young child's interest.

A large part of the reason I chose O over HO was the relaxed, toy-like approach that many O gaugers share. HO is too intensely realistic to me. I wanted to be able to enjoy the layout without having to stress over getting tiny details just so.

Jim

[cnw1995]

I think we're going to be a bit biased here as we are all in O gauge in this forum. I believe your instincts are correct, following my experience. The big caveat is what you want to do - do you want a highly realistic HO layout or something else?

They're growing to grow out of the fun of playing with dad even if they stick with the hobby.

I started in N scale when my daughter was younger and 'into' trains - it was far too small and finicky for her let alone me - but I built a Thomas empire on Tomix trains (for myself) then sold the lot. I just couldn't see myself working in this scale as I got older.

Next, I built an HO layout with my son that slides under his bed. It was rock-solid but still he found the trains easily derailed and were pretty fragile - they didn't 'play well' with friends either.

Now with his younger brother, I have an O layout. He stands on a stepstool to run the trains right next to me - he can run them superfast without derailing;  the sounds and lights captivate him; and it is easy for him to work on a project - making trees - or placing items in gons or on flats. Even the friends of my now-older children are thrilled at the larger trains and want to see them run.

[Deputy]

Being an old geezer (age 57), and proud of it BTW , I've had pretty much EVERY gauge with the exception of N. When I was a kid I had American Flyer (S-Gauge). Sturdy stuff, but limited accessories and rolling stock. I went back to trains when I was in my late 20s with HO. Some neat things back then like momentum, and you could run a LOT of cars in a small area, but almost NO operating stuff like hobos running around boxcars and all the other goodies of the bigger trains. In my 30s I went to Lionel. Very cool stuff but VERY expensive. I had a nice collection of postwar and MPC stuff, but I had to move and needed to sell it all. I wish someone was there at the time to hit me over the head. Unfortunately, they weren't. I tried G-gauge, but the price of that stuff made Lionel look like a bargain. I ended up selling all of that.

Fast forward to last month and I am planning with my new wife what we will do for Christmas. We had a real bad Christmas last year because I was moving from Illinois to New Mexico (that's not the bad part...hehe), and in the middle of the move got hit with a kidney stone. OUCH!!! This Christmas we wanted to make up for it and we are really going to have an awesome one. But I pointed my finger at my wife and said "this year I AM going to have a train under the tree"!!!! Of course, she agreed (I am still in the post-wedding stage, so I can get away with this stuff). My choice was simple. O-Gauge. Lionel has tons of stuff available, and now that other companies like MTH have gotten into the act, it's just amazing what is available for O-Gauge.

Okay...to make a long story shorter...you've seen the comments above. All are true. Most all of us belong to the old geezer fraternity and have "been there done that" with different scales. O-Gauge just has SO MUCH going for it, that nothing else can come close. If the kids get tired of it, you can play with it. If you get tired of it, you can sell it for a good return on E-Bay or to us guys. You can buy a cheap set for the kids to use until they get older and can handle the nicer stuff. And if they get bored with it and want to move on to something else, you have the other options I listed. I remember when slot cars came out and Lionel trains all but disappeared. Funny thing...I don't see a lot of slot car stuff on the web, but I see TONS of Lionel and other O-Gauge stuff advertised.

Dep

[traindaddy1]

My two cents:  After half a century in HO, I made the switch to O27.   My HO experience allowed me to create a very detailed layout while my O27 layout allows me to ""play"" with my trains.  If I did it again (and could afford it) I would have gone bigger earlier.  All the best.

[FJ and G]

I had a really really negative experience with HO growing up. I won't get into all the details about the couplers, train not running on not-perfectly clean track and so on. My O gauge Scout that I bought with snow shoveling money, old sparky, was much more fun to play with.

Not bashing those who love HO; just my experience

[IRONROOSTER]

Try the best of both worlds - S scale.  Large enough to build with, small enough for a layout.  With some action accessories, the kids should have a blast.  See this site for what's available in S http://www.trainweb.org/crocon/sscale.html
Enjoy
Paul

[gvdobler]

The operative word is PLAY with the trains.  I have all gauges but Z set up at Christmas and the different age kids that come over seem to go to different gauges.  I've always allowed them to run the trains and play with them.  Some things have been broken and if one of the kids gets too rough, then we have a "training session."

The Pennsylvania Flyer starter set Lionel has the best track record for run time and the highest "kid" factor approval.  Kids don't care about prototypical anything, they just want to go fast.  I did buy a bunch over Fastrack because it stays together better on a hard surface, but noisey.  If you are on a carpet, then the tubular will stay together fine.

Don't buy expensive stuff and then not let them play with it.  They will get bored in about 5 minutes.

[Dave Farquhar]

Space isn't a big concern. Even with Lionel making O36 track its standard now, that's still an 18-inch radius, just like HO. So you can build an O gauge layout in pretty much the same space as HO. You sacrifice a little realism to get such tight radius, but it works for most of us here.

For price, once you get the starter set, used Lionel is fairly easy to find and inexpensive. I very rarely buy new. So you can expand the layout pretty inexpensively. Also, if you have a Hobby Lobby nearby, judicious use of the 40% off coupons can cut costs significantly, if any of their (admittedly) limited stock happens to meet your needs.

[thor]

I agree with everyone else. I too had HO and went from toys to scale modelling and got fed up with it in the end after many happy years I must admit.  I would have had O to start with if it was available and I could afford it but I settled for HO for space/cost reasons.

However I was given an O gauge Lionel set by my own (grown) children last year and I fell in love with it because I'm raising a little girl (again) and she loves playing with trains.  Whats more, so do I and I mean 'playing' - prototype anting doesnt even come into the picture. 

I feel the years fall away every time we have a session together, lying on the floor, transporting teddy bears, snacks and stuff you wouldnt think you could get on a train, from room to room, making up stories as we go along. 

Although I'm English born, I've always had a soft spot for American icons and Lionel has to be in the top tier of the first rank of those and I can quite understand why. Those post war 0-27 trains are anvil tough and huge fun, I cant speak well enough of them and every little friend who's come visiting has taken one look and said "Wow! TRAINS!" or word to that effect.  Seems like the old magic still holds good even for todays supposed sophisticates.

 

[markn]

Just some general thoughts from my experience with trains and kids-quick answer..

Lionel size trains are better for small hands, they are by design, toys to be played with roughly by kids versus HO which are more scale models operated carefully/prototypically by railfans.  (of course with apologies to "O" scale Hi-railers and EZ track  HO carpet fun runners). 

I still have my childhood Lionels and set them up occassionally (no permanent layout) as the boys were growing up-when they were 10 and 12 they showed some interest in a 'layout' and for size and $ considerations we (I) build a 8' x7' HO layout, very "Lionel-ish" , EZ track on grass paper with premade styrofoam mountains, 4 loops running up to 4 trains , lots of action-log drops, coal tripple, crossing gates, whistles etc with a small Tyco HO road race in the middle-all for about $300 (in 1997) mostly from Lifelike/Toys R Us.

Of course the boys were older than yours and handled/operated the HO size well but boys will be boys and after some normal running, began to crashed the trains into each other/head on/run down one with the other-then the race cars into the trains -set up track blocks with the logs-crashed through them etc etc--playing/having fun-thats what it was for.  By the next Christmas Super Nintendo came out and I don't think they used it twice more-you could race/crash/blow up trains/planes/cars etc then push a button and do it all over and over and over-plus thats what their friends were doing-recess talk is now "what's your score or do you have Game X yet", not come over and see my new boxcar.   

MY POINT-if you go with "O" -keep it simple, reasonably priced and easily collaspible for storage but do buy the highest quality 4' x 8' sheet of plywood for the trainboard because you will use for a ping pong table, baseball backstop, soccer goal, skateboard ramp, paintball target board etc etc etc ...Good Luck, your adventure is just beginning.

[Poppa_Zit]

Try the best of both worlds - S scale.  Large enough to build with, small enough for a layout.  With some action accessories, the kids should have a blast.  See this site for what's available in S http://www.trainweb.org/crocon/sscale.html
Enjoy
Paul

 

Yeah, what he said!

Wheels big enough to see, and rolling stock (passenger cars and locos especially) that don't look they've shrunk in length and look silly when they're going around curves on a normal-sized layout.

[Deputy]

Just some general thoughts from my experience with trains and kids-quick answer..

Lionel size trains are better for small hands...snip

Ahem...they are also quite nice for large hands that are shakey and clumsy from age and prone to destroy things that are fragile.

Dep

[pbjwilson]

This is one of my favorite topics because I can share(showoff) one of my favorite photos. Number one it  shows my kids. And number 2 it shows both HO and O-27 together. Hey why not. Trains are trains.

I have a hard time sticking to one scale. Last year I even started a little N gauge layout.

 I do think that in your experience and the age kids you have that you will have a lot of fun with O gauge. Another good thing with O gauge is they can add some of the other toys they play with, Lego, Playmobil, etc and build their own little play world.

Click on photo to enlarge.

[Deputy]

Hey Paul,
              I like that scenic ballast mat you are using
I used to live in a suburb just East of you...Wilmette. I lived about 1/2 mile South of Edens Plaza on Hibbard Road.

Dep

 

[RR Redneck]

You should go for it dude. O scale is much more kid friendly than HO. I would know, I have two younger brothers that sometimes sneak into my closet. (where i keep my trains) As for the reliability issue, they last SO MUCH longer. A good portion of Lionel's trains from the 20s are still running, does can Athearn say that for the stuff that they put out in the 60s and 70s?

[pbjwilson]

Hey Paul,
              I like that scenic ballast mat you are using
I used to live in a suburb just East of you...Wilmette. I lived about 1/2 mile South of Edens Plaza on Hibbard Road.

Dep

 

Dep,

Yep, I dont skimp on the ballast. You know I set up my christmas layout on that carpet, and several times a year we set up something like what you see in  the picture. No stains or anything. And that carpet is about 60-70 yrs old.

I'm on the far east side of Glenview,  and my kids actually go to Wilmette schools. I'm right across the street from the forest preserve just down the road from Hackneys.

[Deputy]

Dep,

Yep, I dont skimp on the ballast. You know I set up my christmas layout on that carpet, and several times a year we set up something like what you see in  the picture. No stains or anything. And that carpet is about 60-70 yrs old.

I'm on the far east side of Glenview,  and my kids actually go to Wilmette schools. I'm right across the street from the forest preserve just down the road from Hackneys.

 

Dang!!! Hackney's on Harms!!! Great burgers and onion rings!!! We lived very close to each other. I moved in January of this year.

I'm putting my Christmas setup on plywood with a LifeLike Grass mat. Not all that concerned about appearances, other than hiding the wood.

Dep

[TomOnHudson]

Paul, I like the multi-scale approach, and the carpet layout is great. In addition to the more-or-less permenant HO layout (in the basement), we often do the temporary living room carpet (or dining room table) thing.

All, thanks for the comments; I really appreciate the feedback and advice.

I think my boys will be seeing some O gauge trains under the Christmas tree this year. I'll post updates here, and let you know how it goes. In the meantime, I'll need to make room in my basement for another train board, and dust off all of the old Plasticville stuff that's in my Mom's garage. For fun, I tested out my Linonel Scout 1110 stream loco; I think there may some life left in that little guy.

Thanks again,
-tom

[phillyreading]

Not to be overlooked is 027 track for use with some O gauge trains, 027 is smaller in diameter than most H.O. track sizes. There are basic locomotives out there for under $200.00, mostly in diesel models.  

I work with H.O. some and have found that the track size is almost the same for the curves as O gauge.  H.O. can get expensive also with DCC systems.

Williams Electric Trains makes some good quality low priced trains in O gauge.  RMT (aka Ready Made Toys) is another low price model train company and most of their stuff is 027.

Lee F.

[Anonymous]

This thread was a good reminder for those of us who approach the hobby from the hi-rail side of the tracks. We normally look at the over sized flanges, large couplers, etc. as a necessary evil in the 3-rail world rather than as features that allow our children to enjoy the hobby along side us. My two year old son can easily place cars on track and couple and uncouple using the coupler tabs.
Mike

[dwiemer]

Quite simple, O gauge for the most part is more durable for small hands, and easier to work on/with for old eyes.  The kids will enjoy it now (as will you), and you will still be enjoying it when they discover the opposit sex for a few years and then return to the trains like the rest of us.....In the end, trains cost less and keep you satisfied for longer.

Dennis

[Dave Farquhar]

I'll need to make room in my basement for another train board, and dust off all of the old Plasticville stuff that's in my Mom's garage. For fun, I tested out my Linonel Scout 1110 stream loco; I think there may some life left in that little guy.

Woo hoo! Three years ago when I pulled out my Dad's old Lionels, his 1110 Scout was the only one of his locomotives that ran. That was the 2003 Christmas layout: A half-dozen Plasticville buildings, and an 1110 pulling a handful of 1952-era O27 cars. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. And when people came over that year, they didn't notice the tree, they noticed the train. :)

Just FYI, get yourself a good-sized bucket, pour a little detergent in there, and soak the Plasticville for a few hours, then spray it off with the sprayer in your kitchen sink, and it'll look good as new.