CW-80 Transformer Experiences with reliability.

[Anonymous]

Brent,

Could be -- I have no experience with either of these locos/sets. My point is that you have to consider the load of the layout taken in its entirety. My approach in situations such as this is to start with a 40 inch section of track and put one loco on it. If that works, I keep adding track and load until something "gives." Folks often grossly underestimate  how much load arises from lamps, diecast cars, number of cars, illuminated cars, grade, poor lubrication and new, tight equipment, etc.

[Anonymous]

wolv...
I think the total draw from the Mike,5 heavy scale cars and lighted caboose is probably a bit less than the PE and 5 lighted Passenger cars!  With the Mike and lighted caboose you are only drawing additional amps with those two, with the PE and 5 lighted passenger cars you are drawing amps with all 6!

So even though the amprage draw of the Mike is greater than the draw of the PE Berk, I would venture the amprage draw of the 5 lighted passenger cars is greater than the 4 heavy scale cars and the lighted caboose.

Brent

[Anonymous]

palallin,

 Both the 1033 and the CW-80 (old and new versions) are rated at 5 amps. The 1033 can be overdriven, especially if the circuit breaker is stuck. When overdriven, the 1033 will overheat  sooner or later, potentially damaging the itself.

The CW-80 does not have a circuit breaker. Rather it employs an automatic "fold-back circuit. When the CW senses that a layout is drawing too much current, the green pilot light blinks and the transformer simply "folds the current back" (reduces it) to a safe level. In essence, it cannot be over-driven. Under certain circumstances there is no throttle setting that the CW-80 can handle safely, so the light blinks from the get-go and continues to do so because it cannot find a safe operating level. It is trying to tell you something. My advice is to listen to it. 

Here's a simple test you can do. Insert a 5 amp fast-blow fuse between the transformer and track. Try both the CW-80 and the 1033. I suspect the fuse will immediately blow in both cases, given your heavy loads. If it does, it means you are exceeding the RATED current draw with both transformers. That certainly means you need a larger transformer -- larger than the CW-80, larger than the 1033. The fold-back circuit is protecting the CW. What is protecting the 1033? Continuing to drive the 1033 beyond its rated output is not good practice, IMHO.

It's always possible there is a "short" or other hidden draw on current somewhere in the set-up, but the most likely scenario seems that you are trying to power a tank with a motorcycle engine.

I have no thoughts about the differences between the loads placed by the Mikado vs. the PE, except to note that the total load of the present configuration of your layout is clearly greater than 5 watts -- assuming everything is working as designed. Fast-blow fuses can be excellent diagnostic tools especially if you have no means of measuring the load directly with a meter.

[palallin]

Santa brought my boys a PE set this year along with two add-on cars.  After opening them up, we put the train on our big layout.  I have used a 1033 on the main line because my BW-80 won't handle my big, die-cast Frisco Mikado.  With 5 lighted passenger cars, the 1033 had not quite enough ummph to get the PE up the 3% (or so) grade.  The engine would stall just at the sumit.  So I unlimbered the set CW-80 and hooked it up.  Now the train slows on the grade, but it will pull it.  I think the 1033 has a bad winding at the top of the throttle, but the point is that the CW-80 in our PE set works out of the box and has good power.  I have not yet, but I will soon try my Mike on it to see if it will handle that big engine.

 

Sorry to quote my own post, but it is background to what I have to say now.  As I had planned, I put my big Frisco Mike (plus 5 heavy, scale cars including a lighted caboose) on the track with the CW-80.  As soon as I powered up, the light started flashing:  the engine pulled too much current.  When it hit the grade, the transformer blipped, tripping the E-unit, and shutting the engine down.  Only the lowest throttle setting showed no overload, and the engine barely moved on that low voltage.  (this experience virtually replicates the experience with the BW-80, although that unit wasn't able to move the Mike at all.

 

Now, here's the kicker:  the Mike runs just fine and with no problem, even climbing the grade effortlessly, on the 1033.

 

So, the 1033 will power the big die-cast Mike and train up the substantial grade (aprrox 3.5%) with no problem for at least 30 minutes without getting noticeably warm, but it hasn't the ummph necessary to get the Polar Express (with 5 PE cars) all the way up.  The CW-80 will run the PE up the grade (fairly slowly at nearly full throttle) but can barely move the Mike on the level and not at all on the grade.

 

I dunno what it means*, but there's more fat for the forum to chew on.

 

*Well, I know it means this much:  I need a bigger transformer ;-)

[Nick12DMC]

Hi Jaypee, I had the same problems with my sons set here in the UK.

 The CW-80 is designed to run from 115/120V 60Hz AC only. It contains circuits (whistle and Bell)that malfuntion on 50Hz power that we have in most if not all of Europe.

Transformers Do Not alter power frequency.

I think your CW-80 is very dead. Contact Lionel for a replacement CW-80 they are very good about this. They sent me a new one to the UK.

You will then need a 12V DC to 115/120V 60Hz AC Pure sine wave Inverter and a 220/230V 50Hz to 12V DC power supply.

To power a 300watt inverter the 12V DC power supply needs to be about 25 Amps.

I got mine from the following sources. Total for both items is around £140

http://www.amperordirect.co.uk/products/300W-12v_Power_Supply.asp

http://www.invertersrus.com/inv300ps.html

 

Do a search on this forum for "50Hz" and you will see lots of posts on the subject.

Hope this helps

Nick

P.S. Its that time of year again..when Euopean Lionel dealers phones start to go into melt down with all the people calling who can't get the CW-80 or Trainsounds to work 

 

[Anonymous]

lionelsoni

Bob,

A "Roomba" is a small, robotic, circular-shaped vacuum cleaner that meanders around people's homes,  entirely without human intervention , and sucks up CW-80 transformers on the chance they may be bad. I don't know, but I've been told, that they are regularly stymied by the newly revised CW's....

[lionelsoni]

You almost certainly have 230 volts at 50 hertz.  Are you saying that you have some sort of converter that is supposed to convert that to 115 volts at 60 hertz?  Do you mean that you have used that converter to power "one of those Roomba vacs with a funny transformer"?  And what are "Roomba vacs"?

The CW80 uses phase control to vary the voltage.  That is, it switches on and off during every half-cycle of the AC voltage.  The switch-on happens early for high voltage and late for low voltage.  This is the same principle that is used on the dimmers for incandescent lights that you have probably used.  The transformer is designed with the assumption that the power supplied is sinusoidal and at 60 hertz.  It is possible your converter (if that is what you used) does not produce a sine wave, or does not convert the frequency from 50 to 60, or neither.

[Anonymous]

Hello,  I know I am going out on a limb here... I live in France and bought a Lionel train set for my son at Xmas.  I have a "260 W Auto Reversing, 115 - 230V or 230v to 115v  50/60Hz.  I believe we are on 50HZ.  I have a electric meter I bought at Radio Shack and coud test, but don't know how.  I have used in on delicate computer equipment and even on one of those Roomba vacs with a funny transformer that says I cannot use a transformer like I am using.

Anyways, train worked fine. (PN 6-14198 on very bottom 1105) Out of the box - No whistle or smoke that I am guessing is related to the current ?  I accidentally left it on all night (the first and only time I have used it.)  In the morning I noticed it was plugged in but no green light, no fan but it and the transformer were warm(not hot).  Unplugged for several hours thinking it may work again but it is the same - completely dead 24hrs after taking it out of the box.

Any ideas ?  Fuse ?

Thanks in advance, JP 

[Jumijo]

If you have one that works fine, be forever thankful and continue enjoying it.

If you have one that is problematic (I had three at one time; now have only one left in my significant pile of small transformers numbering about a dozen or more), then forget about fussing with it and invest in a reliable transformer that will give you years of good service.  The peace of mind is worth the investment.

I'm now using MTH transformers, a few K-Line transformers, and several older Lionel transformers such as the 1033 and LW, among others.  What I use depends on whether I want the modern features, such as built-in bell and whistle buttons instead of just a whistle button.

I'll likely buy one of those MRC Dual-Power units one of these days because they appear to have what I want and need in a transformer.  Earlier MRC transformers (as opposed to their power packs) had their share of problems, but I've heard good things about these newer models. 

 

I have an MRC Pure Power Dual, and love it.

Jim 

[Anonymous]

I am new here.  I have gained a bit of info since I have been browsing around this site for a while.  I need some help.

  Here is my CW-80 story:

  I have a three year old Lionel CW-80 that died.  The whistle button has been stuck since it was new but I did not do anything about it then.  The powers supply would operate smoothly in clockwise direction but if counter-clockwise it would surge around the track.

  None the less, the unit comes out of the box two to three times years.  The unit was running my PF 4-4-2 fairy good and then it quit.  I herd it stop and headed over to see why my Christmas train stopped.  The green light was not even on.  I ran a tester on the track terminals and they read 18.5VAC and when I put the loco on the tracks it went to zero.  I read some postes that are fairly old mentioning the "security screws kept owner from replacing fuse".  I can not find a fuse inside the unit.  Please help....

[ADCX Rob]

The 1033 puts out ~3.75 amps cold on a good day - at 16 volts or less. The CW will do 16 volts at 5 amps out continuously on its worst day. I think you've just demonstrated this!

Rob 

[palallin]

I have not previously replied to this thread because I had no experience witht eh CW-80, but I do now, and I will share them (to date) for what they may be worth.

 

Santa brought my boys a PE set this year along with two add-on cars.  After opening them up, we put the train on our big layout.  I have used a 1033 on the main line because my BW-80 won't handle my big, die-cast Frisco Mikado.  With 5 lighted passenger cars, the 1033 had not quite enough ummph to get the PE up the 3% (or so) grade.  The engine would stall just at the sumit.  So I unlimbered the set CW-80 and hooked it up.  Now the train slows on the grade, but it will pull it.  I think the 1033 has a bad winding at the top of the throttle, but the point is that the CW-80 in our PE set works out of the box and has good power.  I have not yet, but I will soon try my Mike on it to see if it will handle that big engine.

[traindaddy1]

I use the CW-80 to power my accessories and a six car freight on a side line.    No problems.

[Anonymous]

If you have one that works fine, be forever thankful and continue enjoying it.

If you have one that is problematic (I had three at one time; now have only one left in my significant pile of small transformers numbering about a dozen or more), then forget about fussing with it and invest in a reliable transformer that will give you years of good service.  The peace of mind is worth the investment.

I'm now using MTH transformers, a few K-Line transformers, and several older Lionel transformers such as the 1033 and LW, among others.  What I use depends on whether I want the modern features, such as built-in bell and whistle buttons instead of just a whistle button.

I'll likely buy one of those MRC Dual-Power units one of these days because they appear to have what I want and need in a transformer.  Earlier MRC transformers (as opposed to their power packs) had their share of problems, but I've heard good things about these newer models. 

[RXRon]

Mine  has  always  worked  fine.

[MartyE]

This weekend my daughter asked about running her McDonalds PS2 train with the CW.  I've heard some stories of issues so I was hesitant.  Well I placed in on the tree layout and off she went.  No problems.  So she will be able to run her train whenever she wants.

[Dr. John]

I have one CW-80 (came in the Copper Range set I bought over a year ago.) I used it last year on the Christmas layout with no problems and also with a temporary test layout - again with no problems.

 

I ran Lionel postwar engines, Williams, Marx, and MTH proto 2 locos. All ran without any problems. I only had one accessory ( a crossing gate ).

 

This year I used a KW simply because I have two trains running instead on one. I would not hesitate to use my CW-80 again for a small or temporary layout. 

[jimhaleyscomet]

As you can see from this post, some of us use the CW-80 successfully.  We all wish it would be more reliable (although I have had no failures yet).  Still, I think it is a mistake suggesting someone  jump to a different transformer when they can get a new one from the dealer under warranty. 

 

Jim H 

[ChiefEagles]

Wolverine, I'll bet the replacement will be fine [just have not had to use it].  I'd bet the replacements of others are doing fine too.  I'm a part time rep [they are making part time almost full time] for an on board boat battery charger company.  We are rated as the number and top quality charger.  We have returns too.  Electronics will have returns.

[Anonymous]

ChiefEagles,

Looks like you got a bad one all right. Thanks for "playing the game."  Just think of all the good folks who now know the different things that a flashing green light can signify, and the value of close attention to the Owner's Manual.

Thanks again.

 

 

[Nick12DMC]

I don't want to go over old ground again on the CW-80 but as Christmas is around the corner. I will think of this as a public service for those of us who live outside the USA or Canada.

I have had one CW-80 have the fan fail. This occured while running with 50Hz mains power. I was using it with a 230V to 120V step down to transformer. A few moments after power up the fan made alot of noise and stopped.

However since that time we have learned quite a bit about the CW-80 on this side of the pond.

 Don't operate it on 50Hz power. The whistle and bell circuits malfuntion.

Use a 230V AC to 12 V DC power supply to power a 12V DC to 120V AC 60Hz Pure sine wave inverter.

This will allow a CW-80 to operate correctly here in the UK and other areas of the world with 50Hz mains power. My son's replacement CW-80 has run fine.

A fellow Lionel Collectors Club UK member here has had a CW-80 running on a modified sine inverter (these are a lot cheaper than a pure sine) but uses this to power lights etc.  He uses a Pure sine wave inverter to power the track transformer and TMCC. How a modified sine inverter would fair for powering more advanced (electronics/sound) locos I don't know.

Just a further warning that the Trainsounds system also contains circuits that malfuntion on 50Hz power so you need the inverter to get this to work. You can't just replace a CW-80 with a UK transformer as the transformer has no effect on frequency.

Hope this helps others planning Christmas presents

Regards

Nick

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

[sessal]

Here a "blast from the past", my post on my two CW-80s, from December 2004, still in use under identical conditions today:

I'm not an "expert", but here is my experience with the CW-80:

I have been using two CW-80's on my small layout for over a year now. Each runs one train as well as a two accessories (semaphore, banjo, crossing gate, block signal) activated by insulated rail sections. I alternate running engines with the transformer handle as well as with TMCC in both command and conventional mode, using modern Lionel, MTH, Williams and K-Line engines. To date, I have had no problems with the performance of these transformers. My operating sessions tend to run no longer than 30-45 minutes at a time.

Operates MTH Railking PS-1 Doodlebug, SW-9 switcher, and LocoSound steam locomotive with no problems, including activating horn, bell and station/crew announcements.

Only "quirk": the only way to use an outside insulated rail section to activate signals, gates, etc., is to attach the wire from the "U" post to the center rail, and the wire from the "A" post to the outside rail. This results in reverse polarity and causes the "bell" button to blow the whistle/horn and the "whistle" button to sound the bell. When using a CAB-1, the "bell" and "whistle" buttons function normally.

I use a seperate 1033 to power lights, control tower, airplane at 11v. (posts B and C) and oil derrick and rotary beacon at 16v (posts A and C).

Hope this helps.

- Lou

[ChiefEagles]

Don't think a Polar Express overloaded the CW80.  That was all there was on the track.  It was a bad unit. 

Was this directed at me?

Don't think so.  You didn't make the post about flashing green light didn't always mean short.  I was just explaining the circumstances.

[riverrailfan]

I have had three Lionel CW-80 transformers, I have gave two of them away.

The only problem I had with them was I could not run Proto-Sound and Proto 2.0 locos.

Also had a problem with Fastrack remote switches.  Sort of a neat looking transformer.

good to run a small circle of track at Xmas. One of the problems is that the CW-80 has what is call

a Saw Tooth Sine wave. the older lionel ZWs have what is called a Pure Sine Wave.

Ran a RS-27 with protosound the other night with a CW-80 and it ran it with no problem. Used a lighted terminal track so it could switch directions. The only thing it did was the bell would ring at full throttle and shut off if you full throttled it again which is documented that it will do that.

[dougdagrump]

The problem is probably not the voltage nor the current drawn, but the fact that the A and B terminals are actually the transformer's common.  To operate accessories from an insulated control rail with the CW80, you need to wire A and B to the outside rails and the U under the A to the center rail.  Then the U under the B becomes the accessory voltage.  Unfortunately, this change swaps the whistle and bell functions.  You can relabel them; or you can probably rewire them if you think you are up to it.

Before I finally got some definitive info on setting it up properly I went ahead and set it up for push button operation. I think it ended up being more fun with this arrangement after all. It is the "Nutcracker Gateman" on the Christmas layout so it is towards the front for hi-visibility and the button is nearby and un-labeled. Lotsa fun seeing their expressions when they push the button and the gateman pops out. Maybe this year I should look at motion detectors so that when someone walks in front of him he comes out.

[RR Redneck]

Don't think a Polar Express overloaded the CW80.  That was all there was on the track.  It was a bad unit. 

Was this directed at me?

[ChiefEagles]

Don't think a Polar Express overloaded the CW80.  That was all there was on the track.  It was a bad unit. 

[Blueberryhill RR]

Whether wired with infrared detector or properly-wired isolated control rail, the accessory should not be affected by the track voltage or current, except that, a very large voltage drop on the outside rails (unlikely, and easily remedied) could rob voltage from an accessory using the control-rail-wiring version.

I agree 100 %

[RR Redneck]

RR Redneck.

Thank you for your prompt reply. I understand completely. Best of luck.

]

Yeah, I am glad that I could clear it up.