Another sign this hobby is getting too expensive

[statistician]

I've had my eye on a very expensive Lionel O gauge scale model, and recenly decided to puchase it. As luck would have it, the dealer I called was sold out of it. He then convinced me that there was a very similar model immediately available in his stock room, and I agreed to purchase that one instead.

Three days later, what should arrive in the mail but the model I was told was already sold out. Not only that, the next day the other model arrived. So now I have two engines, and a substantial sum subtracted from my bank account as I used debit. The dealer conveniently did not return any of my calls for a whole week. Finally they replied by stating they do not accept any merchandise returns!!

I'm not at all worried about getting my money back, I already spoke to my bank. But I am more concerned about what this hobby is turning into where the only way to get people to buy the high-end stuff is to trick them into it. If dealers cannot sell it, why do the manufacturers keep making it?  

        

[Roger Bielen]

If the dealer is a licensed business contact the local Better Business Buearue (sp?), or if a TCA member threaten to report him.  Or even better, post who he is.

[csxt30]

Roger is exactly right !! I believe now though, that the manufacturers are taking more preorders to avoid the blowout sales or maybe the big retailers just order a lot of extras . In a way, it's nice to get something they made a while back that you may not have been able to get at preorder time or when it came out. I hope there isn't too many dealers out there like you ran into. Most or all that advertize in CTT should be reputable.

Thanks, John

[dougdagrump]

That is specifically why you should "Never, Ever" use a debit card to pay for a transaction.  

[Anonymous]

I think this is probably a very rare experience.  Most dealers will immediately acknowledge a mistake and take steps to make things right.

I also agree that you should never use a debit card to pay for a mail order transaction.  I'm no big fan of credit cards, but they do offer a measure of extra protection not otherwise available in a long-distance transaction.

Furthermore, learn from this transaction and do not give that particular dealer any more of your business.

[statistician]

I posted debit via Automated Clearing House (ACH), a money transer or paperless check. Banks immediately investigate into ACH unathorized use or fraud and you're not liable much like a credit card account, as they did in my case.

I agree, payment by good old-fashioned money order or check is the way to go.   

This was a very rare isolated case. Once bitten, twice shy... stick to places that advertise in magazines like Trainworld, Train Express, and Charles Ro. I've never had any problems with the big guys... nothing against smaller dealers, just know who you are dealing with first!!!

[Buckeye Riveter]

That is specifically why you should "Never, Ever" use a debit card to pay for a transaction.  

AMEN!

[pgtr]

I agree, payment by good old-fashioned money order or check is the way to go.  

Short of cash I can't imagine a worse method for conducting a mail order transaction for a merchant or a consumer.

[dlagrua]

Prices are simply a reflection of supply and demand.. When manuafcturers put out $1500 engines and people just reach into their pockets to buy them, then of course prices will go up accordingly. Now if  everyone refused to pay that much, then prices would drop in a hurry.

When I go to a train meet I budget  no more than $25 for any piece of rolling stock, $50 for an accessory  and a maximum of $100 for any engine.   You'd be very surprised at what I've purchased.-new Madison Cars, good used GG1's , numerous diesels, switchers, box cars, gondolas, tank cars etc. 

 As someone who is looking for good value I simply refuse to pay an exhorbitant price for a cheaply made Chinese manufactured toy thats going to drop in value like a lead baloon over the next 10 years. If we all held back and refrained from reckless spending,  you'd see prices drop very quickly. 

As for that dealer that you did busines with; if you can't resolve the issue then just take him to small claims court. .

[jonadel]

dlagrua--

Your budget is "interesting" but if it work's for you, OK!

A "good value" for me and you are polar opposites (no pun intended) and again, that is OK, beauty and value are certainly subjective at best. However, for you to profile "Chinese manufactured toys that's going to drop in value like a lead baloon over the years" seems shortsighted and prejudiced, IMO.

Jon

[brianel027]

"Prices are simply a reflection of supply and demand.. When manuafcturers put out $1500 engines and people just reach into their pockets to buy them, then of course prices will go up accordingly. Now if  everyone refused to pay that much, then prices would drop in a hurry."

While this is a basic economic premise, there's one inevitable factor to consider in this train hobby: TOOLING expense. It's entirely likely that the $1,500 list price steamer costs something in the neighborhood of $250,000 to develop and bring to production. K-Line buyers were not buying K-Line's newer scale items, which were already competitively list priced, and many ended up as blowouts and K-Line went under with a multi-million dollar debt with their vendor, Sanda Kan.

Today's finicky spoiled demanding train buyer is only part of the senario. The intense competition between the train companies who have flooded the market with near identical products is another. One company makes a GP-38-2. One buyer says, that's nice buy I'll wait for my favored company to make one and then I'll buy it. so now you have every company offering their own version of the same loco with their own features and enhancements. But how many scale sized GP-38-2's can the market really support and absorb? Or scale Hudsons? Or scale Big Boys?

I'm not saying that the scale stuff is bad. But it certainly has been way way overdone in the past few years, and everyone is paying for it. K-Line did not go out of business from making 027 trains. They got more praise and acclaim from the scale ones, but they also ended up with a massive tooling debt and bankrupt.They should have stuck with the trains that got them started, made improvements on those and pared back the foolhearty development of so many newer scale proportioned trains.

The K-Line story has lessons for the other companies too. We'll see what happens on lawsuit D-Day.

Dlagrua, I'm with you though on your budget constraints on your train purchases. And I think there are many many others who are with us. Matter of fact, I firmly believe WE are the real majority of train buyers, even though we might not spend the same large amounts of dollars on single individual purchases. I was told by K-Line that they made more profit from the sales of their traditional 027 kinds of trains than on their newer scale ones. I think, well I hope, our voices are finally being heard and the train companies will also make products for buyer like us. Williams has been doing it, and I would heartily recommend the purchase of a better value, better made Williams GP-9 over a similar Lionel one to anyone. And RMT has been having success with items aimed right at the traditional 027 buyer.

Though in Lionel's favor, their train sets and add-on packages have made strides and are also decent values. In many cases, it makes more sense to buy a Lionel set and get the loco and cars then to buy them individually.

[proactive]

I am sure you will not use a Debit Card again to pay but in my state, it is a law, you have three days to return anything by mail.  I believe this law was inacted to prevent mail fraud.  Try looking up Consumer Protection with your State of residence on the web.  Also try Better Business Bureau  http://www.bbb.org/  Maybe they can direct you.

M

 

[RR Redneck]

Lets face facts guys, it aint just our hobby that is getting more expensive, EVERYTHING is getting more expensive. The price of living is escalating. We have the highest standard of living and pay among the highest prices in the world for it.

[dbaker48]

As a merchant the only party that wins with a debit card is the bank.  If the merchant is reptuble they would in most cases refund and make the transaction right, IT is truly their discretion.  The customer has NO recourse.  Oh our bank indicated with a debit card a 3% convience fee to the customer is acceptable not so with a credit card.

[phillyreading]

Most of the new stuff is out of my price league, I did go overboard this past year with a purchase of a steam locomotive but don't see paying more than $300.00 for any locomotive in the future. Even the rolling stock is going up in price as most new frieght cars start around $40.00, passenger cars start around $55.00, unpowered B units for diesels are at least $120.00.

I had a credit card problem earlier this year when trying to purchase an item in north Miami, the credit card company(Capital One) refused the transaction as I had made a gasoline purchase about 90 minutes prior in another city north of Miami.  In conclusion I had to use an ATM card & it cost me an extra $60.00 because the bank said I went over my limit in my checking account. I used to think that if it was a credit card emblem on an ATM card it worked just like a credit card, half truth here-it is accepted as a credit card but funds are processed like an ATM card-immediately if not sooner from your bank account.  A Warning about ATM cards with Credit Card logo's   "THEY ARE AN ATM CARD"!!!!!  If you don't beleive me find out for yourself, it can get expensive!!!

While everybody is mentioning about credit card purchases I thought that I would throw in that warning.

Lee F.

[Bob Keller]

My only mail order horror story wasn't much of a horror. A few years before I came to Kalmbach, I ordered a starter set from a large mail order dealer.

What he sent was a somewhat more expensive two-unit diesel, but he only charged the starter set amount. I couldn't figure that out, since the boxes weren't even the same shape.

I called him and when he received the diesel back from me, he shipped the starter set (and credited me for the return postage). Most mail order dealers (and for that matter hobby shop owners) will do what they can to make things right.

[Dr. John]

My only mail order horror story wasn't much of a horror. A few years before I came to Kalmbach, I ordered a starter set from a large mail order dealer. What he sent was a somewhat more expensive two-unit diesel, but he only charged the starter set amount. I couldn't figure that out, since the boxes weren't even the same shape. I called him and when he received the diesel back from me, he shipped the starter set (and credited me for the return postage). Most mail order dealers (and for that matter hobby shop owners) will do what they can to make things right.

Bob, I imagine the dealer was grateful that you were such an honest customer!

I am in the middle of an "in process" order that I hope does not turn out to be a horror story. I placed an on-line order with a well known dealer last week for a couple of engines. I did not hear anything back for several days - no e-mail, etc. so I called Monday. Whoever answered the phone informed me (quite rudely) that "they had been busy with York, and they'd get to my order when they could." I asked if I would receive an e-mail confirmation and was told, "you won't if you didn't ask for one."

I am awaiting the outcome before I say more. If I receive the order in the next few days (or some kind of confirmation) then I'll let the matter drop. Most likely, I will get the engines. I ordered with a credit card, so I'm not too worried, but I really disliked the attitude of the person on the phone. I know York is a busy time for many dealers, but that is no excuse to treat other customers shabbily. Regardless of how this plays out, I am unlikely to order from this dealer again.

[phillyreading]

Ogaugeoverload,

Sounds more like a success story than a horror story.

So far I have had good success with mail order or telephone orders, but have looked up the items on-line before ordering so as to know what I am buying. Never got the wrong item as yet.

Lee Fritz

[Jumijo]

Dr. John,

Would you please e-mail me regarding the problem you had with that dealer?

Jim

[MartyE]

York is no excuse for rudeness.  I think York could be an excuse for a delay in processing but not rudeness.  I would call them on that.  Just my opinion.  How hard is it to politely tell you that they were at York and were a bit behind.  Then look up your order and confirm with you right there on the phone.  Thank you for your busiess and move on.  You'll feel better and they'll probably get repeat business because of the personal attention.  Too bad.  Like I said just my 2 cents.

[Deputy]

I've just gotten back into O-gauge trains recently and ALL my purchases have been with a credit card and online. No hobby shops close to me at all. So far no problems. I will also say that I made a mistake ordering an MTH remote control that was the wrong one and Legacy Station (www.legacystation.com) was VERY prompt in cancelling my order and crediting my card. I'll give kudos where they are due and I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again. Only real problem I had was with Chase, my credit card company. My orders were so large that they put a freeze on my card. Had to call them up and tell them that I was buying toy trains and to expect gigantic order numbers. They put a note on my account and everything is hunky dory.

The York situation is affecting almost ALL dealers, so I expected delays from most of them. This week is "catchup" week and trains are arriving at my house on a daily basis (toy trains, that is). However, ever train dealer I have dealt with has been VERY cordial and I have e-mail confirmations from ALL of them. I guess it all depends on who you buy from.

As far as the price of O-Gauge trains....yep....they are NOT cheap. I mentioned this in another thread. O-Gauge is probably NOT the size train you would want to get into if you want the really nice stuff or are on a tight budget. BUT....you DO get what you pay for. I remember the postwar Lionel stuff (I had a bunch back in the 80s), and the current technology is so far beyond that that it's not even funny. All the investment Lionel and MTH and others put into that high tech sound and operationing stuff has to be paid for. I really don't think the prices are out of line for O-Gauge. Remember that Lionel was pricey even back in the 1950s. All my Dad could afford was a cheapy American Flyer set for me when I was a kid. I just drooled over the guys who had Lionel stuff.

statistician: You didn't say what item you bought that ended up being duplicated. Lots of us are looking for stuff, and if you post it here, it might sell for what you paid for it. Just a thought

Dep

[RR Redneck]

That is specifically why you should "Never, Ever" use a debit card to pay for a transaction.  

THERE AINT NO SUBSTITUTE FOR COLD HARD CASH.