New to this forum, forgive me if this has already been covered. I just bought a CW-80 from a Polar Express set and I set it up to test it. Within 3-5 minutes it started making a fairly loud humming or whirring noise, almost like an internal fan kicked on to cool the insides. From looking at this thing though, it does not look like it would have a fan. Is this the normal noise this unit makes or is something wrong with mine?
Thank you.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
I haven't had any trouble with my CW-80, works fine.
Stan.
THE SOUTHERN SERVES THE SOUTH.
BobS,
First and foremost, welcome to the forum!
With your initial question, you have innocently walked into possibly the most controversial topic currently on the toy train forums. The discussions have been spirited at a minimum, and sometimes have devolved to downright nasty. This is not your fault, so don't be discouraged -- yet.
There are literally reams that have been written about the CW-80. I am responsible for a good deal of it. My experiences with the CW-80's have been very good indeed. Keep in mind, that in customer service one normally sees 40 or so complaints for every accolade, regardless of the product or service. Ask any plumber.
Try using the "search" or "find" feature on this and the other major forum. You will find more than you want to read. I would be honored if you would take a look at some of my posts on the subject.
I am willing to work with you, either here or in private communications, but first I need to know that you are serious. (I have extended this offer several times only to have the person who posed the question(s) drop off the radar.)
If you don't accept any other advice, please believe this:
(1) The CW-80 is unlike any other transformer out there. It's better in some ways, worse in others, but it is certainly different. It seems to be a very safe transformer, suitable for small train sets. It has power similar to the highly regarded 1033*, but is probably not as rugged. If you run it without thoroughly understanding it's quirks, you can damage it.
(2) No matter how much or how little experience you have had with toy trains, you absolutely need to study the Owners Manual word-for-word, including the warranty section. If you don't have a full 12 page manual devoted exclusively to the CW-80, you need to get one. They can be read online at Lionel.com, Customer Service. I advise printing it out. (Don't take my word for it. One of the most esteemed and reliable forum members, "Chuck" of Plymouth, MI, has made this point clearly. I hope he doesn't mind my reference to him. I will see if I can find his post on the subject.)
(3) It would help if you come back into this thread to provide the four-digit number on the bottom of your transformer, as well as some information as to the specific loco and track you have.
(4) When testing the CW-80, ignore your voltmeter. Most home voltmeters will give mystifying readings that in and of themselves are meaningless. If you insist on using a meter, don't just measure the outputs of an "unloaded" CW-80. It needs a working load, such as a train, to be measured properly, and (often) requires a small load, such as an illuminated lock-on, caboose, passenger car, or other small lamp, in order for the direction button to work properly. This is normal, and apparently is necessary for another feature to function properly.
............................
I have remarked recently about the constant bashing of this product, and today is no exception. Clearly my views have annoyed some folks, but I believe that it is one thing to suggest that someone who is contemplating a purchase might want to research some other options; and quite another thing to tell someone who just bought a product that he just made a big mistake. Is that nice? (The exception I would make is where safety is involved, of course.)
BobS, if you don't wish to participate in this discussion on-line, but do want further info, post your email address or phone number either in the thread or in your "personal information." I'll get back to you.
This is an extremely complicated subject and it deserves better than the constant stream of nasty one-liners that it gets. (It takes Lionel 12 pages in their Owner's Manual.) So BobS, you may well have picked up a fine device. Maybe not. You need to "wring it out" according to the manual prior to giving up on it. By the way, as has been said by others, it does have a small fan. It should start right away, but it is somewhat slow to ramp up to full speed-- similar to the throttle. When operating, it sounds about like the fan in a computer. Unplug the CW-80 if the fan does not work -- the device will likely overheat. I always let mine run for a minute or two before starting operations.
If you, or others, want to continue learning about the CW-80, I need to know it. This is too much work otherwise. But ask yourself, given the tone of the comments in some of the posts above, who loves ya?
*For the record, own the following postwar transformers: ZW's, a KW, 1033's, and CW-80's. All are fully operational. For the daily operation of my small "carpet central" layout I use one of the CW-80's and run post-war dual motor "growlers" with several passenger cars with absolutely no problem. Now that I understand it, I find it to be a fun transformer, and so does my six-year old granddaughter. Once you understand it, it really is a plug-and-play device.
Note for jimhaleyscomet: : if you want to "program" the accessory posts, be sure to have a working load (the accessory) wired to posts B and U-under-B, during the programming operation**, and be certain that the accessory remains completely electrically isolated*** from the track and all other "common grounds." Then program it, letting the behavior of the accessory be your guide. With the accessory connected, you should find that your voltmeter (if you insist on using one) reads correctly. The factory setting is about 12 volts. Try it, and please let us know whether it works.
** Admitedly the Owner's Manual is unclear on this subject.
***With certain accessories this is not possible, or at least not easy or intuitive.
BMRR wrote: I haven't had any trouble with my CW-80, works fine. Stan.
YOU ARE LUCKY!
I took a glance at your user profile. By any chance are you in a country that uses something other tha 60 hz. electric A.C. power? There have been discussions about that situation on the forums along with some proposed solutions.
Allan Miller,
Thanks for the kind words. I am actually not a true proponent of the CW-80. A review of my many postings (often lengthy) on this and the other forum will show that I have never recommended buying one. My posts are aimed primarily at those who already have one and didn't get (or haven't read) the full, dedicated, 12 page owner's manual. The Lionel mantra "The CW-80 is unlike any other transformer Lionel has ever offered" (or words to that effect) ought to have been more of a tip-off than it was. Even when it works entirely as designed it is quirky. Under those circumstances some grow to like it, (as I have done) and some don't. And I am inclined to rant at those who have no personal experience with it, but who criticize it anyway. Obviously that group does not include you.
I spent 30 years in a "helping profession." One thing I learned was that you can't help people who won't let you. It's frustrating, but that's the way it is.
I feel very badly for those children whose "big holiday" has been (or soon will be) spoiled by a defective-out-of-the-box CW-80 (increasingly rare, I think) and even worse for those who have a perfectly good one, but don't realize it because they don't understand just how new and different it is.
If parents would treat it like a new VCR, and read the instructions before trying to fool with it, they'ed be a whole lot better off -- especially if they did this "homework" prior to the big day.
The CW-80 really isn't complicated to operate, but your point about being a questionable design for a "starter transformer" is well taken. Even though the Owner's Manual* has a few errors and omissions, reading and understanding it would go a long, long way. The macho guy who had a "Type Q"** back in 1945 and therefore knows all there is to know about toy train transformers is headed for a fall. Like many before him, he might even find a way to damage a perfectly good one. C'est la vie.
* There are actually two versions, slightly different, both online at Lionel.com.
** Or a ZW, or a KW, or a 1033, etc. I've got all of them except the Q, and my best friend has one of them.
Well my stars and garters -- a little support for a change!
Lionel will likely send out an owner's manual (might be a charge) but I printed mine out from their website. Cheap and quick.
According to Jim Barrett of that other forum, a postwar wattage rating doesn't equal a modern wattage rating. There are two different systems of measuremtn involved. The postwar transformers measured input wattage, a good portion of which is wasted as heat. Modern transformers are rated by output. As a rule of thumb, multiply postwar wattage by about 0.7 which puts the 1033 at about 63 watts real output, compared to the CW-80's true 80. But the matter is complicated somewhat by differing waveforms between the two, the fact that a 1033 can be overdriven (especially if the circuit breaker is stuck) although it will get quite warm if you do, and the CW-80's "ramp up throttle feature,* which makes it seem like it has less power than it does.
The CW-80 has a current-limiting "fold-back" circuit that seems to work well and keeps things cool as long as the fan runs. In an attempt to level the playing field, I connected fast-blow fuses of various values in series with the track and ran some semi-formal tests. Under these conditions my CW-80's consistently outpulled my 1033's, although not by a great deal. This little experiment was reported on one of the forums last summer. Your mileage may vary. I use one of my 1033's daily as my bench-test transformer.
No surprise here: the CW-80 will not drive my one MTH PS-1 equipped steam loco; the 1033 will. Waveform issues, I understand. It does fine with non-PS equipped MTH locos.
The accessory post of the CW-80 will not run my O-22 switches because of the "lack of a common ground" issue. I am too stubborn to wire it up "backwards" because I like my whistle button to blow the whistle, and the bell button to blow the bell, and not vice-versa. Yes I have a Dymo labler and some nice black tape, but I refuse to use it. This common-ground issue of the CW is a real PITA. I understand, from several postings, that this is not a problem with FasTrack swithes because they work well at low track-power settings, but it is a real annoyance with my postwar 022's.
Fair and balanced?
riverrailfan,
The requirement for a minimal load on the CW-80, such as a light bulb*" or two, in order for the "Direction" button to work properly, is considered normal. and does not mean that the transformer is defective -- just "different". An illuminated caboose, passenger car, lockon, etc. seems to do just fine. I believe the Owner's Manual is silent on this issue, however.
Speaking of the Manual, the latest edition (Product number 71-4198-250 dated 11/05) still contains an inconsistency in the hook-up guidlines on page 5. The text is correct, but Figure 2 is backwards. If you do it according to the diagram, your whistle button will ring the bell and vice-versa. Other than that, the Manual is pretty good -- if you read it carefully, cover-to-cover. Every sentence is meaningful and the occasional interjections marked "Note!" or "Caution!" are not to be ignored.
The Manual offers the phone number 586-949-4100 (Customer Service) for questions but suggests that customers read the manual prior to calling. The manual can be viewed on-line at www.Lionel.com and/or downloaded and printed out.
The CW-80 Manual also offers repair services, as opposed to the limited replacement service that we all are aware of. This is in direct contrast to what they told me in a personal communication about a year ago. Has anybody had success getting a CW-80 repaired, under warranty or not?
*I think the load has to be an incandescent bulb as opposed to a light-emitting-diode (LED). Does anyone know for sure?
Since an LED will draw no significant current until its forward voltage is reached, a volt or two, and since that current will be quite low even then because of the ballast resistor, I doubt that an LED would do the trick. An incandescent lamp, on the other hand, has about one-tenth the resistance cold that it has when hot; so it makes an excellent sink for the leakage current from the CW80. A simple resistor would also work, but would consume ten times the power at full voltage that the equivalent lamp would.
Although the CW80 may work as it was designed, I believe that it is nevertheless legitimate to criticize that design. There are, as I see it, two substantial flaws in the design, both of which suggest that the designers were unfamiliar with the uses of toy train transformers:
The leakage current problem that requires the external lamp could easily have been avoided by a designer who knew that voltage must go completely to zero for modern reversing units to work properly. At the very least, anyone can see that the problem could have been avoided by putting the dummy lamp load inside the unit instead of outside.
The rewiring needed to make the track and accessory returns common while providing the proper DC polarities for whistle and bell is trivial. I think that anyone familiar with the ancient and very practical control-rail concept, which other Lionel products still use, would have understood this.
Other than these "features", which are flaws in my book, do not require actual ownership to understand, and cannot be excused on the basis of their being (incorrectly) described in the owner's manual, there are two other common complaints about the transformer:
The phase-control method of adjusting voltage that the CW80 uses is incompatible with some other manufacturers' equipment; and the voltage cannot be read correctly without an expensive RMS voltmeter. These are not problems for users who do not care about the waveform nor intend to measure the voltage.
Many have said that their CW80s in fact do not work as designed. This might be dismissed as a "squeaky-wheel" effect. But the fact that Lionel has (to their credit) frequently replaced defective transformers without requiring their return at all suggests that they know that CW80s have a high failure rate and that the failed ones have little value to them for rebuilding.
Bob Nelson
lionelsoni (bob),
Interesting and informative post, as usual.
My reading is that you affirm at least the most important points of my (many) earlier posts:
For those who are blessed (or stuck) with a CW-80 or two, it pays to ignore your handy-dandy home voltmeter, read the manual, and forget about running (some) MTH products with it.
OK Jim, I'll play -- although it might be better to start a new thread. Keep in mind that one often sees 40 complaints for every accolade no matter what the subject....
I have crossed paths with 4 CW-80's. I bought one from a dealer, 2 from eBay, and one was given to me. I have given two of them away -- to a person I like. The two I kept are still running flawlessly.
The one that was given to me was said to be "bad." It worked some, but "never seemed to work right." I soon discovered that the accessory post had somehow been re-programmed to zero output, which I promptly corrected. Also, the gentleman apparently didn't understand that the throttle normally "lags" behind both the hand and the direction button, and that instead of a circuit-breaker there is a "fold-back" circuit that causes the green light to blink and reduces the power when shorted or otherwise overloaded. I don't think he had ever seen the manual for it. I tried everything I could think of to finish it off, using it exclusively for two full weeks. Try as I might, I couldn't make it do anything wrong.*
So I sent it to a friend who has postwar stuff mostly but had just bought his first train with electronics and wanted a "modern" transformer with built-in whistle and bell control, etc. Despite my warnings to hook it up "plain and simple" initially, he put it into an existing setup where he managed to cross-connect the "U" posts, and heaven knows what else. It died as soon as he started it up -- no fan, no green light, no output at all. (I think he blew the infernal, nearly unreachable, 50 cent fuse. Or it might have sustained damage in shipping. Or perhaps it was defective all along, even though I couldn't find it.). So I sent him one of my "spares" which he tested and found to work perfectly, but in truth he hasn't given it any real use yet.
My two remaining ones are well into their second and third years respectively. Both are still performing perfectly. I use one almost every day; the second one somewhat less. My six year old granddaughter loves it. I do keep a 5-amp fast-acting fuse in line with the track. I have had a few derailments but have never blown a fuse -- the "fold-back circuit" has always worked as advertised.
Score so far: 2 complete successes; 1 apparent success but with insufficient data yet; and 1 blown -- due to operator error, I believe.
And that's the truth!
For the record, my friend hand-carried the "blown" one into to Lionel's Chesterfield works. Of course he did not have a receipt from an authorized Lionel dealer, and it was certainly more than one year old. Lionel wouldn't do anything for him: no replacement and no repair at any price. Just an offer to sell him a new one at "list.". That's why I replaced it. I like to think my warranty is better than Lionel's.
*I had previously offered to return it to the nice gentleman who gave it to me if I were able to get it running, but he declined saying he really didn't want it because he was switching over to HO gauge or something. So my conscience is clear.
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