O27 - locomotive slows on some sections...

[Birds]

Jim,

I'm sure you already are familiar with this (and this may not be what you are talking about), but incase someone is new to the hobby...

If one has an engine with a longer wheele base going around a small radius curve (O-31) then the engine will slow down because the inside wheels are turning at a different rate than the outside wheels.  The inside of the curve is a shorter distance than the outside, so the outside wheels have to travel farther than the inside wheels.  Since the inside and outside wheels are joined together with a fixed axle, they can't rotate at different speeds, so they sort of fight against each other (is binding the correct word?).  Anyhow, the train slows down around the curve as a result.

In a case such as that, adding additional power drops won't really help because the cause of the problem isn't a drop in voltage.

So with longer engines, the more open a curve is (e.g. O-72 versus O-31) the faster a train can move around the curve.

Birds

[Buckeye Riveter]

JIm, I would take the total lineal feet of track and divide it by 8.  That is a good estimate of how many power lockons might be needed.  The lockons should alternate from one side to the other even though O-27 track conducts power through the ties.

LGB still has conductivity grease.  It is expensive.

[Brutus]

Thanks for the info - I remember a few years ago reading about some goop in a computer magazine that was supposed to help with conduction - might be able to find it again and see if it would help with trains.  I'll run another feeder to the track at the far end and I'll bet that will fix it anyway - thanks again guys.

Watching the trains at work isn't encouraged but I've seen a lot of interesting cars -- including once about 4 flatcars with Abrams Tanks! 

[Anonymous]

Jim,

But for one letter in the abbreviations of our respective States, we'd be neighbors. I used to live only one block from the main CSX line west out of Washington, and I truly miss the sounds.

"Conductive grease," at least the kind containing real silver particles, is quite expensive. I have no personal experience with it, but it looks like the "sense of the forum" is that it's not worth it.

My understanding is that you simply cannot improve the connectivity of  tight connections between clean metal surfaces.* So, in the short run, cleanliness and tightness are the answers. In the long run, however, a little grease may impede the formation of corrosion within the joint, thereby retaining that relatively high conductivity for a longer period. Were I to put down a "permanent" track, with gravel roadbed, mucho scenery and all that Hi-Rail stuff (track I wouldn't want to have to pull up any time soon) I would seriously consider some form of grease (not necessarily "conductive") as an anti-corrosion measure.

In the end, the track and its joints, the pickup rollers and the wheels must all be kept clean in order to attain consistently good results. The owner of one of the better-known aftermarket sound-system manufacturers once told me that "most of the time" poor performance of his horns and whistles was due to dirt ( that is, poor connectivity) on the GROUND side of the circuit; i.e., the wheels and wipers, because many of his customers concentrated their cleaning efforts on the "hot" side and ignored the returns.

 

*Short of soldering the rail joints, anyway -- either directly or via soldered jumper wires. 

 

[msacco]

I went through some of this when I first set up my present layout. I believe, at least from my ow n experiences, that it's pefectly normal for locos to move slgihtly slower through an 031 or 027 curve. These curves are pretty tight and it's certainly tougher to pull a ltrain through the turn.  

    It's weird because I also notice that long trains that require more voltage to run, actually run smoother and at a more constant speed around an 031 loop.

 

Mike S.

[lionelsoni]

For all practical purposes, O and O27 are the same, 1 1/4 inches (rounded to 32 millimeters in Europe).

The track resistance won't produce a voltage drop unless there is a load (a train) drawing current.  You should be able to see the voltage sag at the trouble spot as the train passes.  A drop of less than a volt is probably not worth worrying about.

[phillyreading]

I like to use GarGraves power clips on 027 track, they will fit with a minor bit of coaxing with a flat-tip screwdriver, also you can hide the GarGraves track clips easier than the Lionel lockons, to hide the track clips I use Squadron's green putty-avalaible at most hobby shops, matches the color of the Life-Like green mats that I use.

Used to work in Indiantown FL and have seen some old AT&SF box cars, one the box cars had a big Q on the side with the slogan "The Q stands for quality", the railroad line is CSX. Have seen this about twice-five locomotives lashed together to pull a frieght train, here in Florida you don't have many hills so I don't know why the five locomotives together unless a really long train.  On the other side of town I have seen three locomotives lashed together for an FEC train and that seems to be the normal thing for FEC, if only one locomotive than the train is a local train doing switching duty with the cement plants down here near Fort Pierce & West Palm Beach FL.

Lee F.

[Brutus]

Thanks guys, lots of great info again!  I'll add a lockon - it's at the far end of the track so about 8 feet away, and also clean the track with some track cleaner I bought.  Now that I have read the above, I suspect that one curve is a little tight - guess I'll buy or make a guage and see whether I'm right.  Anybody know the standard inside width for O27 off the top of their heads?  I never thought about conductive grease, but that's a great idea!

Wolverine, I live in Arnold, MO and work in St. Louis - about 20 miles away.  Our office is actually right next to the old Union Station, which is now a mall, but there are still train yards about 500 feet from our front door.  There is construction going on this week and the lot in between, which is owned by the Post Office, has been cleared so we can watch the trains at break while my friends smoke (I quit years ago).  Mostly BNSF.  Saw some ALASKA cars the other day.

[phillyreading]

Have you tried using additional power lockons to the sections that have a noticeable power loss?  From my own experiance you need a power lockon about every five to six feet when using 027 straights that are about nine inches long, or using O gauge straights about ten inches long, unless using three or four foot long sections of track then every three sections of track.  

The best way to find a power loss is to run a locomotive through the effected area, some people claim that a digital multimeter is best for this but the digital multimeter that I used never noticed a voltage differance of even one tenth of a volt. Run an additional set of wires to the effected track and see what happens, usually an increase in power-even if small increase.

Lee F.

[cnw1995]

Jim, I recommend just cleaning those track pieces where you notice the engine slowly - esp. if it does so consistently.  It will improve even if you wipe it down with a cloth - let alone take it out and clean it with a grinder or fine sandpaper. I have a few like that but I actually like 'em 'cause they cause the trolley to prototypically shudder and jolt a bit...

[Frank53]

additional power supplied to the track at the curve entry wouldn't hurt

[Anonymous]

Jim,

If you haven't seen it, there is a thread about track conductivity on the "other" forum. It is quite recent, and you should be able to find it by searching for "conductive grease" or "dielectric" or the like.

From that wonderfully confusing thread, I conclude (among other things) that there is value in keeping corrosion from forming in and around an electrical joint and that certain kinds of grease may help, whether marked "conductive" or not. There are special products for just that purpose. They make assembly/disassembly easier in any event.

The reason NON-conductive grease often works, seems to be that the electrical connection is still actually made by direct metal-to-metal contact, given that the grease gets "pushed aside" at the actual point of contact. In other words, the grease, unless marked "Conductive" (and therefore containing tiny silver particles) does not conduct anything. However,  even if NON-conductive (aka "dielectric") grease is used, it still can serve to retard corrosion within the joint -- and that's a good thing in the long run.

There does seem to be general agreement that most of the electrical losses in track occurs where two sections of rail join -- not within the lengths of rail themselves.

Even though I have the special "track pliers" with the little notch that tubular track fits into, I have found that you can't tighten any thing up with the tracks connected. That is, you have to take each piece apart and clean both the pins and the holes they go into, whether they seem rusty or not. (As well as the top of the center rail and the upper-inside of the outside rails -- the ground portion -- of course.)

Then, with the track secions still apart, Use the special track pliers (or regular ones if that's all you have) to CAREFULLY squeeze the track until it is just a hair smaller than the diameter of the pins. (If you "upset" the basic cross-section of the track, recovery is difficult at best.)

In my experience, nothing helps more than additional power and ground leads from a "bus" from the transformer. Some folks recommend placing them as frequently as every 4 sections of track. I say, put them where they are needed, based on where the train slows down.

As pointed out in the post above, if the locomotive slows at totally random points on the track, the problem is likely with the locomotive itself. If this happens at the same place(s) all the time, it is probably an electical connectivity problem, but it could be that the track has been stepped on, or otherwise deformed slightly, so that it actually "pinches" the wheels a little.

 

Personal: "Arnold" in what state?

[dougdagrump]

Ditto to what Chuck said. Clean all points of contact, wheels/rollers/track, and add a couple of lock-ons. Oh, almost forgot, don't forget to service the loco especially if it is a new one.

My brand new Docksider, rite out of the box, required some straightening of one of the side rods before it would run. Bent enuff to where it would bind on the frame and stall.

[Blueberryhill RR]

I haven't played with this type track since I was a kid and I think my dad did most of the work then.  I noticed my locomotive slows down a lot on certain sections, so I'm guessing I need to clean the track even though it's new.  Might be oil or something on it.  Is there anything else I should do, like crimp connections tighter or anything?  Thanks for any advice guys (as always)!

Jim, I can only speak about Lionel 031 track, but I noticed that a long train will slow down a little on curves. I guess this is normal. It takes more power to pull curves. I installed an additional Lockon near the curve and it helped a little. You could try that, along with cleaning the track. Also, check your pick up rollers for dirt / oil.

Chuck

[Brutus]

I haven't played with this type track since I was a kid and I think my dad did most of the work then.  I noticed my locomotive slows down a lot on certain sections, so I'm guessing I need to clean the track even though it's new.  Might be oil or something on it.  Is there anything else I should do, like crimp connections tighter or anything?  Thanks for any advice guys (as always)!