I'm going to make these 022 switches work...

[Anonymous]

... if it's the last thing I do!

I unscrewed all of the track sections in the area of the turnouts today & made sure everything was absolutely straight. Then I screwed everything back down. I'm now 99.9% sure that the two turnouts are absolutely straight.

However, all is still not well.

When I run my 2-8-0 Consolidation through the two switches in a counter clockwise direction on the inner loop (which is the opposite direction it was running in the past), the two pilot wheels always derail going from the 022 left hand turnout that was giving me problems to the 022 right hand turnout that has never given me problems.

When I looked closely at the frog area on the troublesome turnout (sounds like a Thomas the Tank Engine episode, don't it?), I noticed that the plastic part that leads to the frog's point from the straight through route is actually HIGHER than the metal rail that is adjacent to it. I think this is the cause of my derailments in this direction. Inspection of the other turnout in this pair shows a similar situation at its frog. The other two turnouts on the outter loop seem to have no hight discrepancy at all.

Should i take out the Dremel tool & grind down the plastic? Or is there a better way? Or does this have nothing to do with my derailments?

Tony

[Anonymous]

Im no expert, but I would try it. After all the other issues you had with them It could not hurt to try it. As I said before, if you try everything then you know its time to get another turnout. Im glad to see that you are trying everything in your power before replacing it[}:)]
Good Luck!

[Anonymous]

OK. The high spot on the frog rail doesn't seem to be causing any derailments, though I'm sure it might if the train were going through faster.

I've run my 2-8-0 Consolidation through the turnouts as slow as I can and I've tried to watch closely as the derailment occurs. The derailment seems to be occurring as the pilot wheels reach the points. (Remember, the train is going around in a counter-clockwise direction). The inside pilot wheel seems to be climbing up & over the rail.

The points seem to be out of the way -- they're on the opposite side of the wheel that's climbing & going over the rail. I'm not sure what the wheel could be climbing on. When I pu***he train through the switch by hand, nothing derails, of course. Maybe the problem is the points, but then why does the wheel opposite the points derail & not the other one?

I took some pictures of the turnouts & would like to post them, but I don't know how. I don't have my own web site, so I can't put them in there & link to them. How do I get an image to appear in this post?

What should I be looking at?

Tony

[FJ and G]

Some trouble shooting is in order.

Is this the only train that derails? Could the defect be in the locomotive?
What is different about this switch from similar switches?
Is the switch canted or tilted?
Are the points fully closing and opening?
Are the rails and frog lined up correctly and correctly gauged? Often, rails are spread too far apart.

If you find you need surgery:
Use a file or your Dremel to cut.
Use epoxy or JB Weld to fill

[lionelsoni]

I posted this on the earlier topic:

Check for oversteer on the pilot truck. Two-wheel trucks are usually pivoted too far forward. When the front of the locomotive swings out on a curve, the pilot wheels actually try to steer too sharply in the direction of the turn. They can then easily derail on any irregularity in the trackwork, like a frog or guard rail. You may be able to observe whether this is happening on your locomotive just by looking at the pilot wheels on a curve.

The correct location for the pivot is about halfway between the pilot wheels and the midpoint of the flanged drivers. I successfully modified a 2026 Adriatic by screwing a metal extension to the pilot truck tongue and pivoting it around a screw tapped into a motor cross-piece. What will work on your locomotive, and whether to do it, you will have to decide.

Your comment on this topic that the inside wheel climbs over the rail seems to suggest that oversteer might be the problem. The difference between running and pushing by hand may be that the locomotive is angled more to the outside of the curve when running on its own, thus increasing the pilot-truck oversteer.

[Anonymous]

Don't do ANYTHING TO THEM. Lionel admits that the Chinese made clay molds of the damn things and that they're all OFF!! The Chinese then dumped all the rest of them that were not sent to the U.S. in the ocean! Send em all back to Lionel for a complete replacement! Lionel admits that they are not correct. GEEEZ, you jobbers! Just get NEW ONES!!

[lionelsoni]

Jack,

Can you give us a reference about this screw-up? All I could find on the Internet was this favorable review: http://www.homestead.com/ogauge/Lionel022.html

[Anonymous]

Jack:

Thanks for the info. Please, where did you get your information?

Tony

[Anonymous]

My friend and I have had endless problems with new, out of the box Lionel O72 switches which are said to be the same design as O22 switches.
The problem was derailments with a variety of different engines. Mysteriously, the problems were not consistent. Some engines derailed the first time around, some after 6-7 times around with no known pattern.
The track is new and was not screwed down but was on cork base. The switches were back to back on a straight away separated by one straight new track.
we could only conclude that the switches had manufacturers defects and returned them. We had the same problems with two more, different switches!
We have 022 switches elswhere on the track with no problems.
Are such mysteries and frustrations with switches normal or routine? Yikes! Ted.

[Anonymous]

I've got a lot of information to pass on. First off, remember that these are my first set of turnouts, so I have no experience with how these things are supposed to fit together.

I emailed Jim Barrett at OGR two nights ago. I included a couple of images of the turnouts that I had taken with my digital camera. He indicated that he's heard a lot of complaints about the newer switches, but he doesn't have enough information to recommend a remedy. He did say that it was evident from my pictures that the fit of the points was, in his words, "sloppy."

One thing I've noticed, which I've never said in any of my threads here, is that the points "rock" about the pivot point in a vertical plane. That is, you can make one of the point rails rise higher than the other, much like a teeter totter. In his response, Jim indicated that these rails have to stay at exactly the same height as the fixed rails or derailments occur. The theory I'm working off of now is that the driver wheels on the consolidation going over the point rails causes the point rails to go out of veritcal alignment, with the end result of the train derailing.

After striking out with Jim Barrett, I decided to follow Amtrack Jack's advice. I just got off the phone with Ken at Lionel Technical Support. First off, he indicates that there are no known problems with the 022 switches and did not verify the rumor Amtrack Jack mentions in his post. He indicated that they do not get many of these switches returned to them, so there is no basis for even saying that there are any "known problems" with the switches.

I'm expecting a letter from Lionel with a return authorization and a shipping label to arrive in a few days. I'll pack up the switches & send them back at that time. Lionel will either repair or replace them.

I'll let you know what happens when I get the switches back.

Tony

[Anonymous]

A further update.

I'm still waiting to receive the letter from Lionel with my RA number & mailing label. But tonight I managed to spend a couple of moments & compare the fit of the point rails on the two troublesome turnouts to the point rails on the other two turnouts.

While I do not think that the fit of the point rails against the outside rails on the other two rails is all that much better, I did notice that the whole point rail assembly is much tigheter and doesn't rock as easily or as much as those on the other two switches. They're not 100% unrockable, but they do seem to move much less.

However, one of these turnouts doesn't lock properly against the outside rail when you through it to the straight through route. You can push it with your finger & hear the locking "cliick", though. I think I mentioned this in another thread.

I'm going to return all 4 switches & write a letter outlining everything. We'll see what Lionel does with them.

Tony