large transformers

[pennsy_fan]

Hi guys, Im in a bit of a quandry, here
I have two KW's powering my layout. (one for trains, one for accesories)
The whistle/horn rectifier went out again, (second time). & I had the idea of just going ahead & buying a command set & a tpc400. It solved the whistle rectifier problem & everything is just peachy now :-).Now I mostly run conventional engines.(Have 1 command geep),Now, Ive read that the newer power sources are best for train operation & postwar xfrmrs are best relegated to acc. control. Im wondering if its best to get a powerhouse (180 watt) to operate my 12 x 9 ft. layout. relegating my kws to acc. power only. Any thoughts?

[pennsy_fan]

Hi guys, Im in a bit of a quandry, here
I have two KW's powering my layout. (one for trains, one for accesories)
The whistle/horn rectifier went out again, (second time). & I had the idea of just going ahead & buying a command set & a tpc400. It solved the whistle rectifier problem & everything is just peachy now :-).Now I mostly run conventional engines.(Have 1 command geep),Now, Ive read that the newer power sources are best for train operation & postwar xfrmrs are best relegated to acc. control. Im wondering if its best to get a powerhouse (180 watt) to operate my 12 x 9 ft. layout. relegating my kws to acc. power only. Any thoughts?

[lionelsoni]

I think you're right that they're thermal. However, I have my doubts that any locomotive, modern or ancient, benefits from faster circuit opening, since the overcurrents are almost always due to short circuits between the transformer and the locomotive, usually derailment, and so pose no danger to the locomotive, which sees only reduced or no voltage. The only situation I can think of in which the circuit breaker would protect the locomotive is when it is overloaded, in which case the overheating that would cause the damage comes on gradually, so that the speed of the breaker is unimportant. Even then, one would have to be very lucky to have a breaker whose characteristics so exquisitely matched the locomotive's as to trip at the right time, neither too early nor too late.

[lionelsoni]

I think you're right that they're thermal. However, I have my doubts that any locomotive, modern or ancient, benefits from faster circuit opening, since the overcurrents are almost always due to short circuits between the transformer and the locomotive, usually derailment, and so pose no danger to the locomotive, which sees only reduced or no voltage. The only situation I can think of in which the circuit breaker would protect the locomotive is when it is overloaded, in which case the overheating that would cause the damage comes on gradually, so that the speed of the breaker is unimportant. Even then, one would have to be very lucky to have a breaker whose characteristics so exquisitely matched the locomotive's as to trip at the right time, neither too early nor too late.

[SPFan]

Bob, Are the automotive breakers you are using a "fast acting" type or thermal? Its my understanding most inexpensive breakers are thermal types. A lot of these require at least a 135% over current to trip immediately. Probably OK for conventional engines but maybe too slow for electronic types? If they do act immediately is there a specific brand or application to look for?
Pete

[SPFan]

Bob, Are the automotive breakers you are using a "fast acting" type or thermal? Its my understanding most inexpensive breakers are thermal types. A lot of these require at least a 135% over current to trip immediately. Probably OK for conventional engines but maybe too slow for electronic types? If they do act immediately is there a specific brand or application to look for?
Pete

[lionelsoni]

I like to use self-resetting automotive circuit breakers, which are small, inexpensive, and available in various current ratings at any parts store.

[lionelsoni]

I like to use self-resetting automotive circuit breakers, which are small, inexpensive, and available in various current ratings at any parts store.

[Anonymous]

There were many mentions of adding fast acting circuit breakers. What size / type / brand should I look for if I wanted to use an older transformer?

[Anonymous]

There were many mentions of adding fast acting circuit breakers. What size / type / brand should I look for if I wanted to use an older transformer?

[Anonymous]

THANKS GUYS!!!!!! My GP-38 does not have the program/run switch. But that's ok. I can always get an engine that has that. Sounds like the prefered choice is the ZW.
Even if later on I want to try the DCS system, it would work as well with the ZW. Since I am reintroducing myself to the hobby, I might be wise to invest in a new ZW rather than taking my chances on so called newer ones like on ebay. The dealer in my area that I have been working with might give me a good deal on a new one. Again thanks for all the info. it has been a great help.

[Anonymous]

THANKS GUYS!!!!!! My GP-38 does not have the program/run switch. But that's ok. I can always get an engine that has that. Sounds like the prefered choice is the ZW.
Even if later on I want to try the DCS system, it would work as well with the ZW. Since I am reintroducing myself to the hobby, I might be wise to invest in a new ZW rather than taking my chances on so called newer ones like on ebay. The dealer in my area that I have been working with might give me a good deal on a new one. Again thanks for all the info. it has been a great help.

[Anonymous]

Great idea Roger for telling jamtjm to look for the Run/Pgm switch.

If you have a Run/Pgm switch, that means that the engine is "command equipped" and will operate in TMCC command mode. This means that the track power is always at a constant 18V, although some operators choose a lower voltage (i.e. 14V) to save on light bulbs and to have finer speed step control. Each engine is assigned a unique id number (1 to 99) by you. After that, you put the engine in "run" mode and the engine "listens" for commands from the CAB-1 remote. For example, if you press Eng #1 and turn the red dial on the CAB-1, the engine will speed up. You will need a CAB-1 remote, a TMCC Command Base, and a power source. The power source can be a PH connected to a TMCC Direct Lockon or a TPC, a new ZW, or any old transformer (just add fast acting fuses or circuit breakers between the transformer and the track). The TPC in this scenario allows more power to a given power block (270W or 360W versus 180W). To set a lower voltage, you need anything but a TMCC direct lockon.

If there is no switch, the engine will operate in TMCC conventional mode. This means that the track power will increase and decrease using the cab-1 remote. Think of it as a remote control to your transformer's throttle. The difference here is that all engines that are located in the given power block will also see increased or decreased power, and therefore will speed up or slow down. And of course, a lot of the buttons on the cab-1 will have no meaning (such as open the front coupler) because the engine isn't command equipped. But you will be able to remotely increase/decrease speed, sound the horn (if present), and sound the bell (if present). You would need a CAB-1 remote, a command base, and a power source that can be controlled by TMCC. The power source can be a new ZW (has 4 built in PowerMasters), a TPC (set in conventional mode), or a 135W PowerMaster (also need a 135W PH).

In terms of sounds, the only thing I can think of is that an old ZW has a whistle button but not a bell button. So if you solely use an old ZW you would loose the bell unless you connect an external bell button. The new ZW and TPC's will operate all sounds that the engine has. I don't use DCS so I can't comment on it.

Note: Whenever I mentioned a TPC, it does require a power source which can be an old transformer, PowerHouse (up to 2 135W PH for a TPC300, up to 2 180W PH for a TPC400, up to 3 135W PH for a TPC400). The new ZW comes with 2 PH and you can add 2 more.

[Anonymous]

Great idea Roger for telling jamtjm to look for the Run/Pgm switch.

If you have a Run/Pgm switch, that means that the engine is "command equipped" and will operate in TMCC command mode. This means that the track power is always at a constant 18V, although some operators choose a lower voltage (i.e. 14V) to save on light bulbs and to have finer speed step control. Each engine is assigned a unique id number (1 to 99) by you. After that, you put the engine in "run" mode and the engine "listens" for commands from the CAB-1 remote. For example, if you press Eng #1 and turn the red dial on the CAB-1, the engine will speed up. You will need a CAB-1 remote, a TMCC Command Base, and a power source. The power source can be a PH connected to a TMCC Direct Lockon or a TPC, a new ZW, or any old transformer (just add fast acting fuses or circuit breakers between the transformer and the track). The TPC in this scenario allows more power to a given power block (270W or 360W versus 180W). To set a lower voltage, you need anything but a TMCC direct lockon.

If there is no switch, the engine will operate in TMCC conventional mode. This means that the track power will increase and decrease using the cab-1 remote. Think of it as a remote control to your transformer's throttle. The difference here is that all engines that are located in the given power block will also see increased or decreased power, and therefore will speed up or slow down. And of course, a lot of the buttons on the cab-1 will have no meaning (such as open the front coupler) because the engine isn't command equipped. But you will be able to remotely increase/decrease speed, sound the horn (if present), and sound the bell (if present). You would need a CAB-1 remote, a command base, and a power source that can be controlled by TMCC. The power source can be a new ZW (has 4 built in PowerMasters), a TPC (set in conventional mode), or a 135W PowerMaster (also need a 135W PH).

In terms of sounds, the only thing I can think of is that an old ZW has a whistle button but not a bell button. So if you solely use an old ZW you would loose the bell unless you connect an external bell button. The new ZW and TPC's will operate all sounds that the engine has. I don't use DCS so I can't comment on it.

Note: Whenever I mentioned a TPC, it does require a power source which can be an old transformer, PowerHouse (up to 2 135W PH for a TPC300, up to 2 180W PH for a TPC400, up to 3 135W PH for a TPC400). The new ZW comes with 2 PH and you can add 2 more.

[Anonymous]

I have an 8' x 12' layout that I take to train shows in the Northern NY area each fall.
I have been using Lionel ZW, KW an V tranformers and have had NO trouble with
power. The old style ZW seems to give me all the power I need. It's usually a
personal preference which Manufacturer to go with. I have never used MTH so I can't
comment. Lionel ZW's go for about $1.00 a watt. If you look around you may be able
to find cheaper than that. I own three ZW's and have $135.00 invested in all three.
Good luck and Godbless with your layout

QUOTE: Originally posted by jamtjm

I am currently working on a large benchwork layout. I am considering a large transformer that is able to operate up to 4 trains in the future. Which is better?
Lionel or MTH?? I have seen both of them on large layouts. Any recommendations??????

[Anonymous]

I have an 8' x 12' layout that I take to train shows in the Northern NY area each fall.
I have been using Lionel ZW, KW an V tranformers and have had NO trouble with
power. The old style ZW seems to give me all the power I need. It's usually a
personal preference which Manufacturer to go with. I have never used MTH so I can't
comment. Lionel ZW's go for about $1.00 a watt. If you look around you may be able
to find cheaper than that. I own three ZW's and have $135.00 invested in all three.
Good luck and Godbless with your layout

QUOTE: Originally posted by jamtjm

I am currently working on a large benchwork layout. I am considering a large transformer that is able to operate up to 4 trains in the future. Which is better?
Lionel or MTH?? I have seen both of them on large layouts. Any recommendations??????

[Roger Bielen]

I'm not familiar with this engine but the easiest way to tell if a Lionel engine is TMCC is to look for the Program/Run switch. If the GP-38 is anything like my GP-9's the switch is on the under side.

As to not working with TMCC, all Lionel egines, or other brand conventionals, can be operated with the TMCC controller (CAB-1). The difference is that non-TMCC units operate in conventional mode with the remote controlling voltage to the track, with a TMCC operating in command mode the track voltage is at a constant 18V, or lower, with control of the unit within the engine signalled from the CAB-1 and base unit.

You could try the Lionel website and see if they have a more detailed explaination on the options for using TMCC. I run in a command environment using a TPC400 with two 180W Powerhouses. If I run a conventional I can toggle over to my old Powermaster and 135W Powerhouse with out any program changes.

As to your current transformer giving jump starts, some older transformers have a minimum voltage rather than "0" as soon as you touch the throttle. You can check this with a voltmeter or a bulb type tester.

Hope I've given you some help on this.

[Roger Bielen]

I'm not familiar with this engine but the easiest way to tell if a Lionel engine is TMCC is to look for the Program/Run switch. If the GP-38 is anything like my GP-9's the switch is on the under side.

As to not working with TMCC, all Lionel egines, or other brand conventionals, can be operated with the TMCC controller (CAB-1). The difference is that non-TMCC units operate in conventional mode with the remote controlling voltage to the track, with a TMCC operating in command mode the track voltage is at a constant 18V, or lower, with control of the unit within the engine signalled from the CAB-1 and base unit.

You could try the Lionel website and see if they have a more detailed explaination on the options for using TMCC. I run in a command environment using a TPC400 with two 180W Powerhouses. If I run a conventional I can toggle over to my old Powermaster and 135W Powerhouse with out any program changes.

As to your current transformer giving jump starts, some older transformers have a minimum voltage rather than "0" as soon as you touch the throttle. You can check this with a voltmeter or a bulb type tester.

Hope I've given you some help on this.

[Anonymous]

The following is a simplification.

As I understand it, TMCC works like this:

1, The operator sends command to the Command Base via the CAB-1 remote (turning the throttle knob, pushing buttons, etc.)

2. The Command Base receives these commands and echoes them to the rails and through it's computer port. Each command indicates which particular device is it's intended target --- Engine #25, "Train" # 3, Accessory #52, or Switch #12.

3. The TPC listens to commands from the Command Base through the computer port. When it detects a command intended for it, the TPC does its thing.

4. TPCs respond to commands for "Trains." Internally, the device implements throttle control by keeping track of the current "voltage step." Locomotives typically operate on a voltage range from 5 - 18 Volts. The TPC breaks up this range into 32 or more discrete steps. Step #0 is 5 volts; step #N is 18 volts, and each step in between is (18-5) / N volts higher than the one before it. .

That's essentially it. For throttle related commands, the CAB-1 sends commands that can be interpreted as meaning "Increase speed by 2 steps" or "change direction". For the throttle command, the TPC increases the output voltage appropriately, updates it's "Current step", and your locomotive speeds up.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Tony

[Anonymous]

The following is a simplification.

As I understand it, TMCC works like this:

1, The operator sends command to the Command Base via the CAB-1 remote (turning the throttle knob, pushing buttons, etc.)

2. The Command Base receives these commands and echoes them to the rails and through it's computer port. Each command indicates which particular device is it's intended target --- Engine #25, "Train" # 3, Accessory #52, or Switch #12.

3. The TPC listens to commands from the Command Base through the computer port. When it detects a command intended for it, the TPC does its thing.

4. TPCs respond to commands for "Trains." Internally, the device implements throttle control by keeping track of the current "voltage step." Locomotives typically operate on a voltage range from 5 - 18 Volts. The TPC breaks up this range into 32 or more discrete steps. Step #0 is 5 volts; step #N is 18 volts, and each step in between is (18-5) / N volts higher than the one before it. .

That's essentially it. For throttle related commands, the CAB-1 sends commands that can be interpreted as meaning "Increase speed by 2 steps" or "change direction". For the throttle command, the TPC increases the output voltage appropriately, updates it's "Current step", and your locomotive speeds up.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Tony

[Anonymous]

WOW sounds complicated. How do the TPC300/400 work? Currently we don't have a lot of electrical accessories, but are planning for a few. The train we have is a GP-38 Chessie Diesel. As I understand it, this particular locomotive will not work with TMCC or DCS. Is that correct? The problem I have right now is when I hook the LW's up, I don't have too much control on when the train starts moving. Kinda jump starts. So I want something that I can control the speed of the train as well as keep the lights nice and bright. My 9 year old boy thinks the train track is the Indy 500 track. Everyones replies have been very helpful so far. Guess I need to iron out a choice and go with it.
Can the locomotive that I have now run on TMCC or DCS just without sounds? Hope these are not dumb questions, but I want to be sure and get everything right so my boy will have something to enjoy for a long time.

[Anonymous]

WOW sounds complicated. How do the TPC300/400 work? Currently we don't have a lot of electrical accessories, but are planning for a few. The train we have is a GP-38 Chessie Diesel. As I understand it, this particular locomotive will not work with TMCC or DCS. Is that correct? The problem I have right now is when I hook the LW's up, I don't have too much control on when the train starts moving. Kinda jump starts. So I want something that I can control the speed of the train as well as keep the lights nice and bright. My 9 year old boy thinks the train track is the Indy 500 track. Everyones replies have been very helpful so far. Guess I need to iron out a choice and go with it.
Can the locomotive that I have now run on TMCC or DCS just without sounds? Hope these are not dumb questions, but I want to be sure and get everything right so my boy will have something to enjoy for a long time.

[Anonymous]

Old ZW's do not have the same rating as new ZW's.

OLD ZW's
1. There are two versions: 250W and 275W. These are the maximum outputs, not continuous. A transformer becomes less efficient as it heats up (from normal use) and total power output falls off. The general consensus on a 275W ZW seems to be around 180W continous.
2. The entire power output of a ZW is available on a single handle but that assumes the other 3 handles are not drawing any power.
3. Have slower acting circuit breakers. On the good side, they don't trip for every little spark. On the bad side, they can fry electronics in modern engines.

NEW ZW's
1. Comes in two editions. Either 2 135W PowerHouse bricks. Or, 2 180W PowerHouse bricks. Both models support the maximum of 4 180W bricks. (Note: Lionel originally advertised a 190W PowerHouse but I think they had to cut it back to 180W in order to get U.L. approval.)
2. Out of the box, you have two handles splitting the power from each PH brick. If you add 2 additional bricks, then each handle is "powered" by a separate brick. That also means that each handle is limited to 180W max (assuming a 180W PH). (The old ZW can give you 275W max on a single handle.)
3. Faster acting circuit breakers.
4. You have 4 built in TMCC PowerMasters. Great if you need conventional control. Or, want to control power to 4 different areas of your layout.

NEW vs OLD
Old ZW's are well built. Unless you have the skills, you need to take old transformers to a service center to have them reconditioned, inspected, etc. Plus, you need to add fast acting fuses or circuit breakers between the transformer and the track.
New ZW's have had their share of problems. If you are buying one, wait for new stock. Otherwise, you might be buying someone else's headaches.

If you are operating in command mode only, I'd recommend a TPC300 (with 2 135W PH) or TPC400 (with 2 180W PH). Personally, I use a TPC300 because I don't want 20A of power running through my rails. If I need more power in the future, I'll just split the layout and add another TPC300.

Whether you use a new ZW or a TPC, you can shut down power, make a change, and turn track power back up all from the CAB-1 remote. You don't have to run back and forth to the transformer.

What to buy is a personal choice. Depends on the equipement you have today and what you'll think you'll have in the foreable future. (i.e. conventional control, TMCC, DCS, etc.)

In terms of cost, I think they are pretty close. It seems to cost around $250-$300 to buy and ship a recondition ZW from a reputable dealer. A TPC300 with 2 135W PH is around $240-$250. A new ZW is more expensive ($360?) but has 4 built in PM's.

In making my decision, I didn't worry about cost per watt. I looked at the equipment that I have (TMCC) and how I wanted to run it (command mode). Also, I wanted to run at less than 18V so a TMCC direct lock-on was ruled out. And, I wasn't that comfortable with running 50 year old transformers so that killed old ZW's. The new ZW was attractive but I needed more than 180W in a given power district/block.

Hope this helps,
Joe

[Anonymous]

Old ZW's do not have the same rating as new ZW's.

OLD ZW's
1. There are two versions: 250W and 275W. These are the maximum outputs, not continuous. A transformer becomes less efficient as it heats up (from normal use) and total power output falls off. The general consensus on a 275W ZW seems to be around 180W continous.
2. The entire power output of a ZW is available on a single handle but that assumes the other 3 handles are not drawing any power.
3. Have slower acting circuit breakers. On the good side, they don't trip for every little spark. On the bad side, they can fry electronics in modern engines.

NEW ZW's
1. Comes in two editions. Either 2 135W PowerHouse bricks. Or, 2 180W PowerHouse bricks. Both models support the maximum of 4 180W bricks. (Note: Lionel originally advertised a 190W PowerHouse but I think they had to cut it back to 180W in order to get U.L. approval.)
2. Out of the box, you have two handles splitting the power from each PH brick. If you add 2 additional bricks, then each handle is "powered" by a separate brick. That also means that each handle is limited to 180W max (assuming a 180W PH). (The old ZW can give you 275W max on a single handle.)
3. Faster acting circuit breakers.
4. You have 4 built in TMCC PowerMasters. Great if you need conventional control. Or, want to control power to 4 different areas of your layout.

NEW vs OLD
Old ZW's are well built. Unless you have the skills, you need to take old transformers to a service center to have them reconditioned, inspected, etc. Plus, you need to add fast acting fuses or circuit breakers between the transformer and the track.
New ZW's have had their share of problems. If you are buying one, wait for new stock. Otherwise, you might be buying someone else's headaches.

If you are operating in command mode only, I'd recommend a TPC300 (with 2 135W PH) or TPC400 (with 2 180W PH). Personally, I use a TPC300 because I don't want 20A of power running through my rails. If I need more power in the future, I'll just split the layout and add another TPC300.

Whether you use a new ZW or a TPC, you can shut down power, make a change, and turn track power back up all from the CAB-1 remote. You don't have to run back and forth to the transformer.

What to buy is a personal choice. Depends on the equipement you have today and what you'll think you'll have in the foreable future. (i.e. conventional control, TMCC, DCS, etc.)

In terms of cost, I think they are pretty close. It seems to cost around $250-$300 to buy and ship a recondition ZW from a reputable dealer. A TPC300 with 2 135W PH is around $240-$250. A new ZW is more expensive ($360?) but has 4 built in PM's.

In making my decision, I didn't worry about cost per watt. I looked at the equipment that I have (TMCC) and how I wanted to run it (command mode). Also, I wanted to run at less than 18V so a TMCC direct lock-on was ruled out. And, I wasn't that comfortable with running 50 year old transformers so that killed old ZW's. The new ZW was attractive but I needed more than 180W in a given power district/block.

Hope this helps,
Joe

[Roger Bielen]

I'd go for the new ZW. If you decide to go for TMCC in the future you already have a major part of the hardware. Personally, I use a TPC400 with 2 X 180W PH's and my old S Type for accessories.

[Roger Bielen]

I'd go for the new ZW. If you decide to go for TMCC in the future you already have a major part of the hardware. Personally, I use a TPC400 with 2 X 180W PH's and my old S Type for accessories.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, guys. I currently have 2 Lionel LW's that I thought about phasing together to use for lights and accesories. Do older ZW's have the same ratings as say a new 2003 model?? I see in the catalog that the ZW comes with 2 - 190w transformers. Which would be the better investment? New or old? Again, thanks for all the input.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, guys. I currently have 2 Lionel LW's that I thought about phasing together to use for lights and accesories. Do older ZW's have the same ratings as say a new 2003 model?? I see in the catalog that the ZW comes with 2 - 190w transformers. Which would be the better investment? New or old? Again, thanks for all the input.

[Anonymous]

With a post war ZW, you have the ability to direct up to 275W (180+W continuous) to a single block of track. (The full output of the transformer is available on a single handle but of course that means you have 0 volts on the other 3 handles.) That's why so many people like these transformers. You can run big lash-ups, long passenger trains, etc. The old ZW's have a lot of "reserve" power and a slow acting breaker.

A modern ZW has either 135W or 180W per handle, depending on the size of the PowerHouse brick that you have connected to that channel.

Using 90W 1033's would allow 90W to a given block of track. If that is all you need, it will work fine. But you must put insulating pins in the center rails between power blocks in order to isolate the 4 transformers from each other.

You should NEVER connect two or more transformers in parallel to the SAME block of track. It is virtually impossible to get the 2 transformers at the exact voltage setting and AC wave forms. And, have them stay at the exact setting after they are in use for awhile. Electricity will actually flow from the stronger transformer to the weaker one. This will cause the transformer overheating.

Also, with 2 transformers connected to the same block of track will cause double the amount of electricity to flow through the rails before a circuit breaker trips. For example, if a transformer has a 15A breaker in it. You have to exceed the full capacity of both transformers before the breakers will trip. In this example, you'll have over 30A of power on the rails. If you are running modern equipment, it will fry the electronics inside the engines. With post war transformers, the breakers are too slow in responding. You can get around this by installing fast blow fuses and/or breakers between the transformers and the track.

There is an exception to this rule. If you use 2 PowerHouse bricks connected to a Lionel TPC300 (300W/15A) or TPC400 (400W/20A). The bricks are more closely matched because there is no manual adjustment of the power output. And, the TPC has a circuit breaker that will trip for shorts. Of course the PH bricks have breakers too. The 135W PH has a semi-fast breaker in it. The 180W PH has a faster breaker. Some say the PH180 is a bit too sensitive and will falsely trip.

The most important thing is to be safe!

With any post war transfomer, install fast acting fuses or breakers between the transformer and track.

If you decide to connect two or more transformers together. Make sure there is an appropriatly sized fast acting fuse or breaker between the bank of transformers and the track to avoid super high current from running through the rails.