getting started - using 027?

[brianel027]

Wonderhow: the 0 and 027 designation has been around for a long time and mostly was an economic desigination as it still is to some degree. The gauge of the rails between 0 and 027 is exactly the same, so the answer is YES.

The 027 trains, even today, are slightly smaller (between 80%-90% of full actual scale) than full scale sized trains. For example, the typical 6464 type box car (9200, 9400, 9700 MPC Lionel era, or the current starter line box cars at $24.95) are a good 3/4 inch shorter in height than scale, at least 1/4 inch narrower and an inch shorter. Doesn't sound like much until you put a scale car next to one of these types.

The '027' cars are not as detailed either. Of course, back when most of this stuff was tooled, the plastics being used didn't take the detail as well as they do now. Also the market has changed. The '027' trains were aimed at beginners and kids. Those kids are now adults with more demanding tastes and (for the most part) the money to demand more detail and features.

BUT you should note that some of the older trains like the Trainmaster engine need the larger diameter of the 031 curve. The same goes for many of the newer more scale sized engines and cars. The biggest problem with 027 curves is not as much the tight curve, but the large size of the housing on the Lionel turnouts.

Spankbird (a member here) uses the newer K-Line 027 switches as does another member Walt. The K-Line switches have the same size base (footprint size) but the housing is virtually non-existant on the K-Line turnout as compared to the Lionel ones. So some of the larger (longer in length) cars and engines will clear the new K-Line turnout.

As a foot note, the older Lionel 027 turnouts (the 1024's) will allow some larger cars and locos to run as they have no large housing.

Oh, by the way, I'm a 027 guy and I'm certain I have as much fun with my trains as anyone else - even if they are a little more toyish, with less detail and smaller.

[brianel027]

Wonderhow: the 0 and 027 designation has been around for a long time and mostly was an economic desigination as it still is to some degree. The gauge of the rails between 0 and 027 is exactly the same, so the answer is YES.

The 027 trains, even today, are slightly smaller (between 80%-90% of full actual scale) than full scale sized trains. For example, the typical 6464 type box car (9200, 9400, 9700 MPC Lionel era, or the current starter line box cars at $24.95) are a good 3/4 inch shorter in height than scale, at least 1/4 inch narrower and an inch shorter. Doesn't sound like much until you put a scale car next to one of these types.

The '027' cars are not as detailed either. Of course, back when most of this stuff was tooled, the plastics being used didn't take the detail as well as they do now. Also the market has changed. The '027' trains were aimed at beginners and kids. Those kids are now adults with more demanding tastes and (for the most part) the money to demand more detail and features.

BUT you should note that some of the older trains like the Trainmaster engine need the larger diameter of the 031 curve. The same goes for many of the newer more scale sized engines and cars. The biggest problem with 027 curves is not as much the tight curve, but the large size of the housing on the Lionel turnouts.

Spankbird (a member here) uses the newer K-Line 027 switches as does another member Walt. The K-Line switches have the same size base (footprint size) but the housing is virtually non-existant on the K-Line turnout as compared to the Lionel ones. So some of the larger (longer in length) cars and engines will clear the new K-Line turnout.

As a foot note, the older Lionel 027 turnouts (the 1024's) will allow some larger cars and locos to run as they have no large housing.

Oh, by the way, I'm a 027 guy and I'm certain I have as much fun with my trains as anyone else - even if they are a little more toyish, with less detail and smaller.

[Anonymous]

Can I run O27 gauge lionel trains on O31 track

[Anonymous]

Can I run O27 gauge lionel trains on O31 track

[lionelsoni]

You would be better off posting in the Model Railroader forum, where HO people hang out. This forum is for "toy" trains, in larger scales.

[lionelsoni]

You would be better off posting in the Model Railroader forum, where HO people hang out. This forum is for "toy" trains, in larger scales.

[Anonymous]

Sorry to jump in but i,m getting started with a smaller scale and I HAVE THE INTER LOCKing track and i can not find any cross track for it can someone help

[Anonymous]

Sorry to jump in but i,m getting started with a smaller scale and I HAVE THE INTER LOCKing track and i can not find any cross track for it can someone help

[lionelsoni]

Chris, I don't know about the new Lionel J's; but my 773 can't get through an O27 switch, because a middle (blind) driver touches the wide center rail on the curve. In shortening their locomotives, Lionel often reduced the diameter of the drivers or beveled the inner, blind, drivers to clear the flanges of the outer drivers. The reduced wheelbase and the bevel both increased the clearance to the middle rail. However, the scale Hudsons had neither of these advantanges. I have been agonizing for some time about whether to grind a bevel into my 773's wheels. For now, it is restricted to one wide-radius loop (Marx O34).

It is possible to modify many O31 pieces for O27. As I have mentioned in other topics, that is somewhat a specialty of mine. If you have a question about another specific piece, I would be happy to make suggestions. But the big Hudsons are still a problem for me.

[lionelsoni]

Chris, I don't know about the new Lionel J's; but my 773 can't get through an O27 switch, because a middle (blind) driver touches the wide center rail on the curve. In shortening their locomotives, Lionel often reduced the diameter of the drivers or beveled the inner, blind, drivers to clear the flanges of the outer drivers. The reduced wheelbase and the bevel both increased the clearance to the middle rail. However, the scale Hudsons had neither of these advantanges. I have been agonizing for some time about whether to grind a bevel into my 773's wheels. For now, it is restricted to one wide-radius loop (Marx O34).

It is possible to modify many O31 pieces for O27. As I have mentioned in other topics, that is somewhat a specialty of mine. If you have a question about another specific piece, I would be happy to make suggestions. But the big Hudsons are still a problem for me.

[brianel027]

Chris, a couple things are at play here. I've noticed some inconsistancies in Lionel's catalogs. You'll see an engine in a set that comes with 027 track... then see the same engine (except for roadnames) for separate sale listed as "minimum 031." I've been told from mfgr. reps that they feel there is a perception that 027 equals toy train. And since the hobby (or at least the mfgrs. new offerings) are aimed at the adult scale market, they think listing as 031 is more appealing.
Some product will negotiate the 027 curve, but will hit the switch box on the 027 switch. In the case of MTH, since they don't even make their own 027 track, they list as 031 minimum curve, unless they've had a chance to test the item. The MTH Railking Automatic Dump Cars are listed as 031 curve, but I've found they DO clear the Lionel 027 switch box. Same goes for the MTH Railking PS-2 Hopper... I know because I have both. In the case of the hudson you mention, it could be that the new one is slightly WIDER than the old one, causing it to hit the switch box. Then again, it could be a marketing technique.
I find this is the one good thing about supporting your local dealer. You treat him nice with sales, hopefully he'll remember that and let you try out a new item to be sure it clears the 027 switch. My old dealer, GoneLoco Train Shop would let me test out an item if I was serious about buying it. You may pay a little more, but you'll be certain you can run what you're buying. That's where I bought my MTH Railking items. I appreciated the test run... he appreciated the sale (and could tell others it runs on 027 track).
Maybe someone here has the engine and can pipe in. You could also try e-mailing Lionel at: [e-mail]

brianel

[brianel027]

Chris, a couple things are at play here. I've noticed some inconsistancies in Lionel's catalogs. You'll see an engine in a set that comes with 027 track... then see the same engine (except for roadnames) for separate sale listed as "minimum 031." I've been told from mfgr. reps that they feel there is a perception that 027 equals toy train. And since the hobby (or at least the mfgrs. new offerings) are aimed at the adult scale market, they think listing as 031 is more appealing.
Some product will negotiate the 027 curve, but will hit the switch box on the 027 switch. In the case of MTH, since they don't even make their own 027 track, they list as 031 minimum curve, unless they've had a chance to test the item. The MTH Railking Automatic Dump Cars are listed as 031 curve, but I've found they DO clear the Lionel 027 switch box. Same goes for the MTH Railking PS-2 Hopper... I know because I have both. In the case of the hudson you mention, it could be that the new one is slightly WIDER than the old one, causing it to hit the switch box. Then again, it could be a marketing technique.
I find this is the one good thing about supporting your local dealer. You treat him nice with sales, hopefully he'll remember that and let you try out a new item to be sure it clears the 027 switch. My old dealer, GoneLoco Train Shop would let me test out an item if I was serious about buying it. You may pay a little more, but you'll be certain you can run what you're buying. That's where I bought my MTH Railking items. I appreciated the test run... he appreciated the sale (and could tell others it runs on 027 track).
Maybe someone here has the engine and can pipe in. You could also try e-mailing Lionel at: [e-mail]

brianel

[Anonymous]

Heay! 2 things, to anyone. First off: How come Lionels new J3a hudson( The same size as my postwar 2046 steamer) runs on 0-31, but my steamer runs on 0-27? I mean, theyre practicly the exact same thing! Second: Is it possible to customise 0-31engines and rolling stock to 0-27 operation? Up for grabs!

[Anonymous]

Heay! 2 things, to anyone. First off: How come Lionels new J3a hudson( The same size as my postwar 2046 steamer) runs on 0-31, but my steamer runs on 0-27? I mean, theyre practicly the exact same thing! Second: Is it possible to customise 0-31engines and rolling stock to 0-27 operation? Up for grabs!

[cnw1995]

Boy, brianel, thanks so very much for your advice!

[cnw1995]

Boy, brianel, thanks so very much for your advice!

[brianel027]

cnw - yes starting with a set is a good way in any scale. Lionel's FasTrack like Bachmann's EZ Track offers immediate gratification on Christmas morning, but unless you're planning a large layout, FasTrack also has it's limitations too. KB Toys (on their web site) currently has Lionel's Ballyhoo Circus Train ($300 list) for $99 including shipping. A great deal! The set, from last year has a hefty die-cast hudson with 3 operating cars, lighted caboose and 027 track. MTH's Santa Fe Railking Freight Set or one of the Dockside Switcher sets are also very nice, but around $200. The Lionel Southern Freight Set from this year is also nice (a dual motored GP-38), with a new 80 watt transformer and the new FasTrack. Lionel's economy set, a Great Northern set with a RS-3 diesel is budget priced. But the diesel is entirely plastic with only one motor. The engine can be altered to pull better by adding some weight and adhereing the traction tires with either some kind of glue, or 3M Carpet Tape - which is what I use. Check e-bay for the K-Line Cross Country Sets (3 different road names: Santa Fe, Chessie or C&NW. K-Line also made a nice UP Freight set with a MP-15 diesel, or a Lehigh Valley set with same diesel. These all have 027 track., which as you read above has limitations, but is very affordable. Stop into a hobby shop and ask questions. I'm not big on the Command Control stuff, but you may find you like it. Good luck.
brianel

[brianel027]

cnw - yes starting with a set is a good way in any scale. Lionel's FasTrack like Bachmann's EZ Track offers immediate gratification on Christmas morning, but unless you're planning a large layout, FasTrack also has it's limitations too. KB Toys (on their web site) currently has Lionel's Ballyhoo Circus Train ($300 list) for $99 including shipping. A great deal! The set, from last year has a hefty die-cast hudson with 3 operating cars, lighted caboose and 027 track. MTH's Santa Fe Railking Freight Set or one of the Dockside Switcher sets are also very nice, but around $200. The Lionel Southern Freight Set from this year is also nice (a dual motored GP-38), with a new 80 watt transformer and the new FasTrack. Lionel's economy set, a Great Northern set with a RS-3 diesel is budget priced. But the diesel is entirely plastic with only one motor. The engine can be altered to pull better by adding some weight and adhereing the traction tires with either some kind of glue, or 3M Carpet Tape - which is what I use. Check e-bay for the K-Line Cross Country Sets (3 different road names: Santa Fe, Chessie or C&NW. K-Line also made a nice UP Freight set with a MP-15 diesel, or a Lehigh Valley set with same diesel. These all have 027 track., which as you read above has limitations, but is very affordable. Stop into a hobby shop and ask questions. I'm not big on the Command Control stuff, but you may find you like it. Good luck.
brianel

[cnw1995]

Any advice as to how to get into this? I am an n-scaler who is intrigued by the heft of O-scale trains. I am passingly familiar with Lionel - having played with my dad's old layout. What's the most cost-effective way to enter the hobby - Should I start with a train set?

[cnw1995]

Any advice as to how to get into this? I am an n-scaler who is intrigued by the heft of O-scale trains. I am passingly familiar with Lionel - having played with my dad's old layout. What's the most cost-effective way to enter the hobby - Should I start with a train set?

[brianel027]

I'm the late one to the table on this post... just found it digging back.
There's nothing wrong with 027 track, and I actually like it the best of anything. If I build another layout, I might consider Gargraves, but that would be it. 027 track, despite the disadvantages of tight curves and oversized switch boxes is affordable and lowprofile. If you've ever seen a 4'x8' layout with MTH's RealTrax, the layout is nothing but track because of the large roadbed. The same would be true with Lionel's FasTrack. Not to mention with the 40 inch outside diameter of FasTrack, on a 4'x8' you'd have room for little more than an extended oval. At least with 027 track, the same space offers a little more in possibilities. As far as the 'ruggedness' of 027 track, once you screw it down, it's fine. I've been using 027 track for 13 years now and it's still holding up.
Yes, there is a decided swing towards the adult buyer in new product. Scale this and scale that. But an 18 inch scale loco that negotiates an 031 curves looks as silly as the more toy-like 14 inch loco on an 027 curve. 027 track was always and still is the budget alternative. Of course, in other times in this hobby, there was far more product being made that would run on the 027 curves. This is where I soundly disagree with nearly everyone when I say the hobby is heading downhill from here. There is little product with little promotion or availability geared at families with kids. No family with kids is paying $500 for a train engine, or $60 for a train car. I sent my neighbor to a train shop after his boy fell in love with my Lionel/K-Line layout. He looked at the prices of Lionel and K-Line product and bought an HO set instead.
Anyways, before I continue to get away from the topic, 027 is fine and is needed now more than ever!! Even if all the electronic-scale crazed adults who easily blow $500 on an engine would disagree.
And I too love the challenge of seeing what I can get away with on 027 track. I've chopped my switches down to just the bare track and enjoy custom building and kitbashing my own cars and engines. I think I can safely say I am the only person in this entire hobby (the entire plantet really) with a 12 inch long Conrail U36B... my favorite engine. I consider it the modern equal to the 027 Alco FA of the 1950s! Looks great on my layout too.

brianel

[brianel027]

I'm the late one to the table on this post... just found it digging back.
There's nothing wrong with 027 track, and I actually like it the best of anything. If I build another layout, I might consider Gargraves, but that would be it. 027 track, despite the disadvantages of tight curves and oversized switch boxes is affordable and lowprofile. If you've ever seen a 4'x8' layout with MTH's RealTrax, the layout is nothing but track because of the large roadbed. The same would be true with Lionel's FasTrack. Not to mention with the 40 inch outside diameter of FasTrack, on a 4'x8' you'd have room for little more than an extended oval. At least with 027 track, the same space offers a little more in possibilities. As far as the 'ruggedness' of 027 track, once you screw it down, it's fine. I've been using 027 track for 13 years now and it's still holding up.
Yes, there is a decided swing towards the adult buyer in new product. Scale this and scale that. But an 18 inch scale loco that negotiates an 031 curves looks as silly as the more toy-like 14 inch loco on an 027 curve. 027 track was always and still is the budget alternative. Of course, in other times in this hobby, there was far more product being made that would run on the 027 curves. This is where I soundly disagree with nearly everyone when I say the hobby is heading downhill from here. There is little product with little promotion or availability geared at families with kids. No family with kids is paying $500 for a train engine, or $60 for a train car. I sent my neighbor to a train shop after his boy fell in love with my Lionel/K-Line layout. He looked at the prices of Lionel and K-Line product and bought an HO set instead.
Anyways, before I continue to get away from the topic, 027 is fine and is needed now more than ever!! Even if all the electronic-scale crazed adults who easily blow $500 on an engine would disagree.
And I too love the challenge of seeing what I can get away with on 027 track. I've chopped my switches down to just the bare track and enjoy custom building and kitbashing my own cars and engines. I think I can safely say I am the only person in this entire hobby (the entire plantet really) with a 12 inch long Conrail U36B... my favorite engine. I consider it the modern equal to the 027 Alco FA of the 1950s! Looks great on my layout too.

brianel

[Anonymous]

034 was high-end Marx. I like it a great deal: it will fit nicely inside 042 and outside 027. It's becoming less cost-effective to start new using it because the supply is finite, though it's still cheaper to get good 034 than it is to buy many of the new systems. The new 036 systems (and SuperO, of course) are comptetitors. I like the flexibility that tubular rail gives me, however, so I'm using it for my layout (along with some 027 and more 042). Marx 034 is a great compromise track, and it would be used on more layouts if the rush wern't on to switch to new track systems and if more people knew about it. Naturally, since I'm still gathering more, I'm delighted that it's not more popular. ;-)

[Anonymous]

034 was high-end Marx. I like it a great deal: it will fit nicely inside 042 and outside 027. It's becoming less cost-effective to start new using it because the supply is finite, though it's still cheaper to get good 034 than it is to buy many of the new systems. The new 036 systems (and SuperO, of course) are comptetitors. I like the flexibility that tubular rail gives me, however, so I'm using it for my layout (along with some 027 and more 042). Marx 034 is a great compromise track, and it would be used on more layouts if the rush wern't on to switch to new track systems and if more people knew about it. Naturally, since I'm still gathering more, I'm delighted that it's not more popular. ;-)

[lionelsoni]

I have no complaints with the way it looks on the curves; but my situation may be more favorable than yours: My O34 main line is the outside loop of an around-the-walls layout; so you see the 733 only from the inside of the curves, which I makes it harder to see any overhang than when looking from the outside. Furthermore, my layout is moderately high off the floor, 45 inches, which means that the viewing angle is mostly horizontal, again minimizing the visibility of overhang.

But, in any case, this is a very subjective thing. If you've got some O34, why not stick it together and see how it looks? The O36 will be slightly better. Chacun a son gout.

[lionelsoni]

I have no complaints with the way it looks on the curves; but my situation may be more favorable than yours: My O34 main line is the outside loop of an around-the-walls layout; so you see the 733 only from the inside of the curves, which I makes it harder to see any overhang than when looking from the outside. Furthermore, my layout is moderately high off the floor, 45 inches, which means that the viewing angle is mostly horizontal, again minimizing the visibility of overhang.

But, in any case, this is a very subjective thing. If you've got some O34, why not stick it together and see how it looks? The O36 will be slightly better. Chacun a son gout.

[Anonymous]

for lionelsoni-

I'm just curious on how your 773 actually looks going around 034 curves. Does it have alot
of overhang? The reason I ask, is that I'm considering switching to "O36" Atlas track (the
widest curves I can fit on my 40" X 8' Christmas layout, and am wondering just how "funny"
a scale Hudson would look on those curves (pulling 15" passenger cars). I don't own
any scale-sized stuff right now, but am seriously considering switching over from my
"traditional-size" items to scale pieces like the K-Line NYC Hudson ( or the 1990 Lionel 700E), among some other choice pieces.

I bought some of those Marx O34 curves on eBay a couple of years ago and was quite
surprised to find that they actually seemed better constructed than Lionel O27 track.
And even my Lionel 5405 "Baby" Hudson (pulling Baby madisons) looked alot "smoother" running through those curves than it did 27" diameter.

Thsnks in advance.

Jeff

[Anonymous]

for lionelsoni-

I'm just curious on how your 773 actually looks going around 034 curves. Does it have alot
of overhang? The reason I ask, is that I'm considering switching to "O36" Atlas track (the
widest curves I can fit on my 40" X 8' Christmas layout, and am wondering just how "funny"
a scale Hudson would look on those curves (pulling 15" passenger cars). I don't own
any scale-sized stuff right now, but am seriously considering switching over from my
"traditional-size" items to scale pieces like the K-Line NYC Hudson ( or the 1990 Lionel 700E), among some other choice pieces.

I bought some of those Marx O34 curves on eBay a couple of years ago and was quite
surprised to find that they actually seemed better constructed than Lionel O27 track.
And even my Lionel 5405 "Baby" Hudson (pulling Baby madisons) looked alot "smoother" running through those curves than it did 27" diameter.

Thsnks in advance.

Jeff

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

My thing is seeing how much I can get away with on O27. I run a Big Boy, a Trainmaster, and a 16-wheel flatcar, among other things. They all had to be modified, but surprisingly little; and for me that is part of the fun.

My objection to O31 is that the track profile is even more out of scale than O27. Although my tightest curves are O27, I do use O34, O42, O54, and O72 where there is room. They are all available in the O27 profile.

I have one main-line loop that is all O34; so any visiting O31 equipment can run there. For now, my 773 is confined to that track--until I figure how to get it through the O27 switches. If you are not familiar with O34, I suggest that you check it out. It was made by Marx and matches O27 track. You can find it without too much trouble at train shows and on the internet. You can recognize it in Ebay pictures by the 5 Marx-style ties in each 45-degree curved section. Marx made some very good switches for it.

I use almost exclusively K-Line 36-inch sections for tangents. This reduces the number of joints by a factor of 4.