At one point I was operating original postwar flyer exclusively. The first improvement I made was purchasing several MRCDualpower 027 powerpacks. The original Flyer engines operate much better since this has a pulsed power output rather than pure sine wave. The downside is the tender horns will sound continuously unless you disconnect one of the wires in the tender, very easy to do.These packs are tethered remotes using phone cord and jacks. I space several jacks around the sides of the layout for complete mobility. The bell and horn buttons actuate the sounds on the American Models engines as well. All was great until I bought the Big Boy and the Legacy control system. I immediately made the decision to retrofit some of my American Models engines with TMCC and sound commanders so I could operate them with the Legacy controllers. For power I use the MRC Dualpower packs set at 12 to 13 volts.To run original flyer I just use the tethered remotes on the blocks that have the flyer engines. Very simple and a I can run new legacy with old flyer easily on the same layout (different blocks) and the original flyer runs so much better on the pulsed power.
Just an alternative to think about.
Tom
Here's a link to the NMRA standard for the signal: http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/standards_rps/S-91-2004-07.pdf
Each bit (binary digit) sent to the train comprises a cycle of about 58 microseconds of one voltage polarity followed by 58 microseconds of the other polarity, for a "1" bit. For a "0" bit, the two half cycles are each longer than 100 microseconds. The magnitude of the voltage used depends on the scale, 12 volts for N, 14 volts for HO, S, and O, and 18 volts for G.
The real advantage that DCC has over TMCC and DCS is that it is an open standard, rather than proprietary to one manufacturer.
Bob Nelson
TimboyRichhotrains: I'm surprised someone else hasn't mentioned this, but there are DCC forums out there where those dudes could offer up THE most technical and/or complete explanations on the theory of it. Even the S-Scale List is populated with guys who have literally written the book on this subject, or at least on the first generation of DCC. Hope this helps with your quest. -Big, Bad Timboy
Tim,
There are some DCC forums and I am a member of two of them, but once the topic came up here, I was interested in hearing some explanations from some of the guys that frequent this forum.
Rich
Alton Junction
Timboyrichhotrains: Please take this next statement in the most positive way. Does the physics of it really matter to the home model railroader on a level other than theoretically? -Big, Bad Timboy
Nope, but my intellectual curiousity keeps getting the better of me.
lionelsoni DCC is not exactly DC, nor is it exactly AC. The NMRA says it best: "The DCC signal is an alternating DC waveform..." It is like a constant DC voltage, with the polarity reversed very frequently. The pattern of the reversals is used to encode the commands sent to the train. The voltage can be rectified and then used to power the train.
DCC is not exactly DC, nor is it exactly AC. The NMRA says it best: "The DCC signal is an alternating DC waveform..." It is like a constant DC voltage, with the polarity reversed very frequently. The pattern of the reversals is used to encode the commands sent to the train. The voltage can be rectified and then used to power the train.
So, in layman's terms, what exactly is DCC? Is it a form of AC, or DC, or neither, or both?
A DCC system plugs into AC house current. Does it transform AC to DC?
Be gentle with me. I already told you that I am electrically illiterate.
lionelsoni Toy trains were originally run on DC and (at least until they started putting electronics into them) still do. As AC replaced batteries and residential DC power they were commonly run on AC instead. Around the middle of the last century, when permanent-magnet motors and rectifiers became practical, scale modelers began to use those motors, which will run only on DC, using the polarity to control direction and eliminating the need for reversing units. Traditional American Flyer locomotives with universal motors are easy to convert for DC reversing. Just install a bridge rectifier for either the armature or field current, but not both, and remove the reversing unit. Then it should look to the DCC circuitry much like a large HO locomotive. I believe that there are different versions of DCC intended for different sizes of trains. You might be okay with the HO stuff for S. Or you may need the next beefier version of the electronics.
Toy trains were originally run on DC and (at least until they started putting electronics into them) still do. As AC replaced batteries and residential DC power they were commonly run on AC instead. Around the middle of the last century, when permanent-magnet motors and rectifiers became practical, scale modelers began to use those motors, which will run only on DC, using the polarity to control direction and eliminating the need for reversing units.
Traditional American Flyer locomotives with universal motors are easy to convert for DC reversing. Just install a bridge rectifier for either the armature or field current, but not both, and remove the reversing unit. Then it should look to the DCC circuitry much like a large HO locomotive. I believe that there are different versions of DCC intended for different sizes of trains. You might be okay with the HO stuff for S. Or you may need the next beefier version of the electronics.
Before I even make my next comment, let me say clearly and loudly that I do not understand electrical current all that well (i.e., I am electronically illiterate).
Having said that, and being the operator of an extensive HO layout powered in DCC, it is my understanding that DCC is a form of AC rather than DC. The term DCC, which is an acronym for Digital Command Control, is an unfortunate term in the sense that it can easily be associated with DC.
I don't know what this means, but the literature says that the DCC power and signal on the rails is square wave AC.
Just thought that I would add that to the mix.
Jock, it's true that trains were run directly from 110-volt residential power. One trick was to control speed by screwing lamps into sockets connected in parallel with each other and all in series with the track. But that doesn't mean AC. Edison believed passionately in DC; and his influence took a long time to die. DC was very common in the early days of toy trains. My 1929 Lionel catalog includes the (110-volt) model 107 and the (220-volt) model 170 DC reducers for use with household DC. For those without electric service, Lionel also sold rheostats: "With this rheostat you can, when using dry or storage batteries, operate Lionel Trains at various speeds..."
What brands? All of them. They would all run on DC, and still will today.
I actually take more exception to people converting old outside 3rd rail engines to inside 3rd rail or to 2 rail than I do with updating them to DCC and modern can motors. I'm giving it my engines a new lease on life while still preserving it's outside 3rd rail heritage which is sadly almost extinct. I fully intend to use them. Keep in mind that many of those old engines, mine included, were built from kits and random parts from various manufacturers. I've had to redo a few old sloppy solder joints. I am changing a few detail parts too. In the end I'm making them nicer than they were, capable of running with the best modern pieces.
There are a few old pieces that I wouldn't touch. An original Lionel 700E is something I wouldn't mess with for example. Any old Lionel OO gauge equipment I wouldn't modify. There are others too. For a time I even considered repowering and upgrading my Lionel postwar Western Pacific F3's but didn't do it. I actually don't even have plans to run them anymore. They were just cleaned up and work perfectly.
I would't go so far as to say adding DCC to an old train is desecrating it. I am currently converting 2 old brass outside 3rd rail engines from the 40's over to DCC complete with soundboards. They are remaining outside 3rd rail though! I am also swapping the original motors out for more modern and efficient can motors. I'm not desecrating them. I'm updating and improving them.
Timboy,
I don't know much about DCC other than it is for use with DC. Too much electronic stuff for me to keep up with in my opion.
Lee F.
If you are looking for a style of remote control without modifying your AF engines, try a TPC-300 for voltage control or either TMCC or DCS for remote voltage control. You will be able to run the AF engines in conventional with the handheld remote control unit and may be able to have horn or whistle control as well.
With DCC you might have to step up to G gauge DCC detectors to use with AF because of the motor's power load. What little I do know about DCC is that each engine needs it's own receiver.
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
I wasn't following this particular forum back in 2006 2when this thread was first originated. But, it seems to me that converting your old Lionel or American Flyer engine to DCC is the equivalent of converting your grandfather's old wood console radio to an HDTV. Why bother? Why descecrate a vintage toy train that way? Why not leave it as it is? If you want to run DCC for O gauge or S gauge, why not just start with modern equipment?
As an HO modeler who runs a DCC powered layout, even converting modern equipment to DCC can be a chore in certain instances. The motor has to be isolated from the frame for starters. Then, you have to modify the electronics for DC. That eliminates using that old AC transformer. Dunno, I just don't see the advantage of converting pre-war or post-war vintage toy train engines to DCC.
Rich.
If the AF loco was made to run on DC, it will only run on DC. If it is an AC-motored Flyer engine, it will run on either one.
A lot of operators install DC can motors in Classic Gilbert Flyer locomotives. Several type are made specifically for this purpose, and you can reverse-install them (put the original motor back in) to protect the collector value, if you lean that way. The locomotive is not altered or damaged in any way. Some of the motors are geared lower for more prototypical running at slow speeds.
You can find them at http://portlines.com
Original American Flyers ran on alternating current(AC) and I think DCC is a direct current(DC). May want to try DCS-2 by MTH rather than DCC, DCS-2 is AC compatible. Using DCC may require some major motor overhaul work or rewiring.
Lee
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