I would like to thank brianelO27 for a suggestion He made to the "RMT trains" thread on this forum!
I have a Lionel docksider (O-6-O) in Santa Fe livery, and really liked the engine. The problem was it would run about 5 laps and then stall out over a Lionel O-22 modern-era switch I have in the loop. I cleaned the switch, I cleaned the roller pick-ups, and the wheels. The engine always stalled.
My docksider became a shelf queen. I even purchased a couple K-line shadow rail switches with the intent of replacing the Lionel version. I didn't want to do this, as the track was ballasted, and would have to basiclly be ruined to do this. Really liked the way the engine ran (mine is wisper quiet, and smokes up a storm!), but just couldn't run over this switch without going to neutral.
I read brianelO27's post to the "RMT trains" thread, and saw where He suggested putting a piece of plastic or cardboard on the frame of the engine to keep the pick-up roller from touching the frame or chassis, whichever you prefer. I decided I was too lazy to try this, but I had some electrical tape laying around. I placed 2 pieces of tape where the roller may touch the frame,and the docksider has run for about an hour now without any stalling! I never even considered this as a problem! I was looking for unclean track, rollers, or that the spacing between rollers was just not enough to pass over the gaps in the O-22 switch. My problem seems to be solved using a modified version of BrianelO27's solution.
I would like to thank brianelO27 for this tip. I have always enjoyed reading his posts, as I agree with him a lot of the time, and I know his posts have been well thought out. People like him are a real asset to this forum, and I wish I could help others as well as he does. Thanks, Man!!
oh, man!!!. I think you just solved my problem.
My Beth Steel Docksider would always bump and grind through my postwar and modern 022s and go into neutral and stall. It's being serviced right now, but when I get it back, I'm definitely going to try this. Exactly where do you put the tape?
thanks a lot,
Mike S.
Well, thanks yourself and your welcome mpzpw3!
I unfortunately have found in the past that some folks who have worked for the various train companies simply do not have a clue when it comes to the very products that they make.
One time in the early 90's I was talking to a service tech at K-Line asking why they mounted trucks on their flat cars with the "wrong" hole on top of the truck (you'll notice on K-Line's plastic truck there is a center mounting hole and a second one behind it). I was told it was to prevent the car from derailiing on 027 track. I told the tech "nonsense". I had remouned all trucks on my flat cars and none derailed. I further explained that the standard K-Line caboose could not be run behind a second caboose as the extension edge on the end handrails caused the car to derail on 027 track. The tech asked for my number and said he would call back.
Lo and behold, 30 minutes later he called back and said I was absolutely right. Heh, no surprise to me. Sometimes the best knowledge of this hobby is attained by actually being in it and messing around a lot with the trains as I do. My friends all laugh wehn I tell them the first thing I do when I have bought ANY train product, is to take it completely apart... just so I can see what is going on. Most of my ideas are actually my ideas, though sometimes I'll see somewhere that someone else has hit about the same fix.
I don't talk about this much, but some years ago I was tentatively hired by K-Line to be in their engineering departement. I spent some time down in Chapel Hill and unknowlingly accepted the offer. I had many realtors and apartment agents hang up on me. Or they'd wish me good luck on finding someplace other than a single room student dorm to live in on the piddly salary offer I was given.
Turns out the Chapel Hill area is not exactly a cheap place to live because of the close proximity of Research Triangle Park and the colleges there.
But I also had a strong gut feeling that Mr. Klein and I were going to butt heads and sooner than later. Mr. Klein is a very smart businessman, but he is NOT a train guy. Not at all. I could see even then the scale direction he was leaning in, and I disagreed quite a bit. I would have cut back the scale end development at least by half and more than likely more. Then Bob Grubba was brought aboard and most of the engineers I had met were sacked.
Folks like to talk about the great things Grubba did. Maybe so. But his greatest accomplishment (much sarcasm) in my opinion, was putting K-line out of business. Had Mr. Klein listened to me and my ideas, he'd be in business today and thriving too. But I know I wouldn't have lasted. When you worked for K-Line, you weren't working for K-Line... you were working for Mr. Klein. Period.
I know this hobby like the back of my hand and I'm just too determined. And I know when I'm right. I predicted years ago K-Line would go under due to the heavy excesses of scale products and I was right again.
Matter of fact, in all the things I have commented on and predicted over the years, the one thing I was wrong about is the success of FasTrack. And FasTrack still ain't for me, but I'm glad it's done well for Lionel.
Anyways mpzpw3, thanks again. I know I like to pontificate about the state of this hobby (which I wouldn't do if I hadn't had so much experience with promoting the hobby and seeing the positive results). But when I see my ideas and fixes help other folks get more enjoyment out of their lower end trains, that's one of the real upsides for me.
Hey, I ain't getting paid by Lionel or anyone else in the train business to spend time on this train forum. So I must enjoy it. I'm living proof you don't need command control or to spend tons of money to enjoy this hobby.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
brianelO27, ponificate away, as it keeps things interesting, and most of the time I think you are right, although I have moved a little more to the "scale" side of the hobby. The most scale things I have are the MTH proto-1 Santa Fe F-3's (also have a postwar set of 2343's and a Williams repro. of the same), and the Santa Fe Warhorse set from Lionel. Should also admit to having Lionel Command Control, as I like to use a remote to run trains.
I tend to be a bottom feeder. I have a lot of MPC-era Lionel, some postwar, and to date 5 Williams engines. I purchase almost everything used. The exceptions are the low end Lionel such as the docksider and 0-4-0's. RMT is not my thing, but I am glad others are happy with their products.
It's amazing how many of these "little fixes" go unnoticed by the manufacturer's, but are available from other hobbyists, which, at times, seem more knowledgable (SP) than the people selling the stuff. From reading this forum, the Lionel cw-80 seems to be a problem with about everything, yet Lionel keeps putting them in starter sets.
The docksider doesn't like Lionel O-22 switches but doesn't seem to have a problem with other brands (refer to Allan Miller's reply), Uhhhh? Lionel?... At least make your own products compatible.
I'm not bashing any manufacturer, just seems too many "fixes" are found on-line, and not in the catalogs.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I'm not AGAINST the scale side of the hobby. It has undoubtedly helped grow the hobby some and provided more enjoyment for others. It is the completely lopsided excessive selection of these items that has been as much a detriment to the hobby as the products themselves are a blessing. The companies have been spreading themselves thin with so much new tooling. The development/tooling costs are a liability as are is the reality of the limited sales. All the companies have said profit margins on these products are marginal. It is out of the bitter competitve circumstances of the business side of the hobby that these products are offered in the quantities that they are.
Again, with some irony, in Lionel's own statements, TMCC use is at disappointing levels (and bear in mind TMCC is far more popular than DCS) after more than a decade and the strongest sales are is the starter set/starter product area. To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever that a little more effort and tooling investment isn't being put in this area - which represents the REAL future of the hobby... the VERY future of the hobby. Even without new tooling, if they'd only make some more minor improvements in the existing products (dual motors in all diesels and metal frames in place of plastic... or at least more substantial plastic frames) and lower the list prices to more attractive levels.
Personally I see companies like RMT as the future of this hobby, despite the strong association of the Lionel name. Imagine if every shop that stocked Lionel also stocked RMT and Williams... the Lionel name gets 'em in the store, but they might just walk out with items not in an orange and blue box. Williams biggest problem is that they do not have the availability or comsumer awareness that others have. On a comparison level between a starter level Lionel GEEP and a Williams GEEP, Williams is the unquestionable winner on price, warranty and quality.
We shall also see what direction Atlas takes the Industrial Rail line... Atlas is promising a complete line including locos and sets. Despite some grumbling, the new Atlas list prices are not far off from the original UMD list prices. People are remembering the blowout prices of the UMD products, not their fair market lists or fair market discounts. And UMD Industrial Rail always had a good wholesale, which made for good discounts.
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Brian,
You are so right on with your post. It's ridiculous to me that MTH and Lionel sink all this money into an extremely niche market. I think of cases where I have heard MTH doing a run of 20 or so locomotives. Completely ridiculous and a waste of resources that as you said could be used to grow the entry level.
I've been turned off by both companies new catalogs. There's just very little, if any, at the traditional level to excite me, and when I do really like something, the pricing, especially Lionel, is way out of line.
Seems like something has to give. I keep waiting for the cycle to complete itself and more traditional products are being offered again.
Guess I won't hold my breath though.
Thanks Mike. The one single upside of the lopsided state of the product offerings today is that prices are down quite a bit (from a decade ago) on many more common, less detailed, non-scale, non-control trains. For the modelers who already understands the hobby, the various periods, and technology terms, this is a buyers market no question - at least as far as pre-owned trains goes.
Lionel is selling their name, simple as that. They know their name has recognition and value, so they push that to the maximum. Every recent Lionel CEO has talked about competitive pricing and value, so obviously Lionel has a different outlook on what "affordable" really means. Besides, as I have said before, when you purchase a $30 starter set car, you are in part making a welfare payment on the high end items that do not and cannot possibly pay for themselves, at least in the short-term. But even with all the production cutbacks and cancellations, the companies are still having to blowout certain train items - so that's the time to buy the new items.
I haven't been very excited either about the past few Lionel catalogs, and I haven't bothered with MTH for years. Lionel seems to have it's corporate head stuck in the sand when it comes to getting up to date with road names on starter items. Making trains up to date does not mean they have be loaded with unreliable expensive electronics. There are simple modifications that Lionel hasn't even though of (?) that could do wonders for basic starter types of trains.
Jaabat, you made me laugh. I think there are some who wish I would post LESS. But I know many of my feelings do represent the majority of modelers, though they may not be active on these forums or attend YORK every time. Ironic huh. Even Nick Ladd once told me he knew full well the majority of modelers were tubular non-control table top operators. Yet K-Line's product offerings went in the opposite direction. Go figure... go out of business.
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