ChiefEagles wrote: If you are modeling east of the Mississippi, you model NS or maybe CN. That other line that starts with a "C" doesn't count.
If you are modeling east of the Mississippi, you model NS or maybe CN. That other line that starts with a "C" doesn't count.
Hmmmmmmm..........!!!! I wonder what he means by that ?
Thanks, John
fifedog wrote:Aesthetically speaking, if you are modeling anything east of the Mississippi, you've just gotta have some jade green PC equipment (or NYC or P&LE for that matter) mixed in your consist.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
PC represents a changing economy and chaos for the railroads. PC was competing with the trucking and airline industry. Plus they were loosing revenue from manufacturers that were ditching America for Japan. Pacific coast railroads such as the SP and UP thrived on Japanese imports as they were shipped into the pacific coast. Old school protocol and union work work rules also strangled the PC's ability to make profit on a run. On top of that, the PC inherited aging equipment and right of way that need more than maintenence. The PC litterally ran it all into the ground because there was not enough profit coming in to refurbish it all.
Bob Keller
FJ and G wrote:I took lots of photos of the PC back in 68-74. Eventually my camera broke and I had to get glasses. PC will do that to you.
Bob, your comment is almost is as bad as the oragne versus purple debates, but then I remembered reading what a die-hard NYC fan you are... so you are half-way forgiven! Gee, doesn't that make you feel better now!
I never did understand all the brewhaha over the Penn Central black loco scheme given that NYC and PRR were hardly that splashy in color either. I do understand why the old NYC and PRR fans have such a dislike for PC. Even the prior NYC/PRR employees of the merged PC had so much animosity towards each other... that severe lack of cooperation and new purpose doomed the Penn Central as much as other circumstances.
But that said, the PC loco I believe was the first if not one of the first truly "modern" logos of which many new train logos would soon follow suit. The Chessie Cat, the CP Rail mountain/moon logo, the large BN or the Burlington Northern, the "CN" of Canadian National, the large circle split rail logo of the Illinois Central.... all I believe after the famous wiggleworm PC logo.
I've read the books on the PC disaster - and yes it was a mess. BUT there's an important footnote: that many changes in operating rules and government regulations that the Penn Central lobbied for were denied every time UNTIL the federal govenment became responsible as the owner/operator of the PC (and the others) via Conrail. Boy, it was amazing then how quickly many of the changes the Penn Central had asked for were suddenly approved.
Conrail was projected to be in the red until the year 2025 or somehting like that. Conrail was in the black by the mid-1980's. Of course, it was more than government regulation and operating rules. The entire northeast US rail system was one of repitition in routes, facilities, too many employees and declining revenues. Something had to give, and many loyal railroad employees were rewarded with pink slips. But so weren't many employees of factories that once shipped with the NE railroads: companies that either went belly up, moved south or overseas, or went to trucking versus rail shipping. How ironic? Can anyone say "Sanda Kan?"
Yes, the Penn Central seemed to be doomed to fail. But had the changes the PC wanted been acted on sooner, who knows? Remember, it wasn't just the PC. The New Haven was in worse shape than the PC. The CNJ was a thin shadow of it's former self due to lack of maintenance. Their track and equipment was probably in the worst shape of all. The EL was in trouble. The beloved Lehigh Valley was partially owned by the PC. And the Reading had valuable connections with other failing lines. The Reading and the Lehigh fought extra hard to avoid becomming part of Conrail. But in this whole mess of rail lines that seemed to have nowhere to go but down came one of the greatest turnaround stories in American business: Conrail.
And obviously there was something good about Conrail. Trains magazine has recently done some stories on the intense bidding war for Conrail between CSX and Norfolk Southern (and potentially others at the time). That Norfolk Southern is doing so well now in the northeast rail lines that were once in total disarray, speaks volumes that there was and is a need for good rail service... it just has to be managed and run right. Time to insert a well deserved plug for Walter Matuch and RMT!!
As I read those recent Trains articles, I couldn't help but think of the 3-rail train companies pouring so much money into scale high end products that even they admit in their very own words, make them little if any profit. Seems dumb to me... but history tends to repeat itself. So look out Penn Centrail... you may be joined in the anals of fallen flags by yet another of our 3-rail companies... can anyone say "K-Line.?" Just like the real rail lines, K-Line, MTH and Lionel were/are chasing too few dollars with too many risky high end products that they admit have thin margins. Just imagine if Lionel and MTH merged... ouch! Double ouch!! Talk about extreme animosity!!! One more Penn Central debacle coming up!! While the grill is still warm, lets have the the 3-rail train companies whip up another batch of brand new high end scale Hudsons too!
Maybe we could have a government take over of Lionel and MTH: the lawsuits could end, and we could get back to the business of real toy trains, making products for the real majority of buyers. Hey, Norfolk Southern ain't crying any tears over owning part of Conrail. There was potential there all along... it just took a few decades to find a company smart enough to figure out that potential. And there's a good analogy for the 3-rail train biz today.
So when all the legal lawsuit cookies have crumbled, I have a sneaking suspicion there will be as much bitterness with the 3-rail train fans (and their brand allegiances) as there still is over the NYC/PRR merger into the Penn Centrail. You can quote me on this, because I'm right.
And Andrew, I too have read the Penn Central as a company still exists, though in some other form... I think real estate or something. This could have something to do with licensing. Hey, ownership of Lionel's name is no longer part of the company and the new TMCC improvements are outside the umbrella of Lionel proper.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
The Conrail Corporation has not been vocal about licensing either Conrail or the Penn Central. That is a relief.
If the Hobby Shop manager or owner has too much Penn Central on hand, he will most likely give someone a bulk discount if they buy all of it at one time.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Ogaugeoverlord wrote:I think most guys view the Penn Central like the proverbial night out where you wake up three days later in an alley in Hong Kong with a hangover. Friends don't let friends model Penn Central.
There have been some great railroad heralds gracing trains over the years.
Penn Central is NOT one of them.
They could offer licensing for the logo, but who would put it on anything?
The Norfolk Southern website (www.nscorp.com) has a history of the NS featuring the Norfolk & Western, Southern Railway, and Pennsylvania. Penn Central was mentioned once in a sentence.
In time span of about 150 years the PC lasted less than a decade. That decade would look like a speedbump in railroading progress in such a long time frame. The Penn Central company that remained changed its name several years ago because it became a financial corporation. I saw that article in trains.
Still if you are over 30, Penn Central O Gauge trains from Lionel, K-Line, Williams, and MTH create a strange mix of both excitement and dread.
I don't believe they can use Penn Central, or charge for it, as they are still a company of some sort, I've been told. Last I heard, they still owned land & some other stuff. I started on PC, back in 1975. Not a very organized RR then. They had too many Chiefs & not enough Indians. The worst RR to work for back then. Now during the changeover from Conrail to CSX & N&S, the NS chose PRR for their share of rolling stock & CSX chose NYC for their share. I know, cause I was stencilling cars for CSX & installing the sticky transfers to our cars for CSX. CSX & NS are both aware of money they can make from toy trains, or royalties, I believe, but they aren't quite like the UP !! They probably believe in using their lawyers for other things.
Someone at Norfolk Southern or CSX will have to lay claim to all that is the Penn Central.
Can they take all the Good of the PC without taking all the Bad of the PC.
CSX is focused on the NYC.
NS is focused on the PRR.
Will they share all the ups and downs that made the PENN CENTRAL distinct?
I am shocked to discover that the CSX and NS are not fighting hard to enforce the licencing of Penn Central toy trains.
Everybody loves the Penn Central and buys the Penn Central.
Thank goodness that we are free from the fees. No licencing fees makes operating new Penn Central Locomotives, Cars, and Cabooses much less costly.
We can all save money if we decide, "This year I am modeling the Penn Central."
The Penn Central is good cheap fun for everyone.
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