Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
No doubt that the typical scale modeler probably would like one nicer loco versus several comprosmised ones, true. But this begs the question, is the typical scale 3-rail modeler the typical (and majority) train customer? And everything I read and hear says no. I haven't been to YORK in a while but I have had reps from the 3 major companies all tell me that the scale buyer is not the clear majority customer, although they may enthusiastically spend more dollars. Just as even Lionel 's own statements have indicated that the numbers of modelers fully using digital control is very disappointing given the length of time the systems have been available.
And now again, I'll point to the BEEP. Why is this product so successful then? It's not really scale, because it's not really prototype. The detail level, though adequate, is certainly below par compared to many other products, and yet the BEEP has done tremendously well. I dare say there are a majority of train buyers who actually would rather have several more affordable engines in their favorite road names, that just one very nice, expensive loco. Even some of the more "serious" buyers have found the BEEP to be easily improved and ungraded.
Now that sounds like a winning product... one that appeals to everyone!!!
I remember going to a state fair some years back and having a laugh watching this young ego filled guy spend nearly $100.00 on some shooting game trying to win his girl some stuffed bear. This scenario reminds me so much of the train business today from an industry standpoint: foolish, not practical, financially ill-advised and full of self-importance. I mean this guy I watched could have easily bought the same cheap bear at a fraction of the cost. He could have bought a top notch quality stuffed bear and still have lots leftover for a very nice dinner. I remember when the guy exclaimed "I can't believe I just spent $100 to win this bear!" I doubt that girl stayed with him very long either... he may have won the game, but it wasn't very practical was it? Remind anyone of all these train lawsuits?? Maybe that guy runs a train company today?
I'm not anti-scale... I'm just pro-common sense. How many times have you heard something like "That MTH loco is nice, but I'll wait for Lionel to make it." Repeat that phrase several times, substituting all the other companies and you'll have the answer as to why every company offers so much duplication of the same products. Once again, I'm reminded of the guy at the fair with his immediate short-term victory.
And although there are blowouts on all kinds of train products, I do not see the quantity and deep blowouts to lesser expensive beginner items as I do the premiere types. Dealers tell me they don't have to reduce prices on beginner items as they tend to sell on their own. When I was looking for the Lionel Conrail U36B a few years ago, hopefully as a blowout because of the single motor, I was told not to expect it.... the the engine was selling very well because it was the first low-end Conrail separate diesel in many years... it never did become a blowout. Charlie Ro had it for $90, but that's hardly a blowout.
I just think there's a lot of foolhearty thinking going on at some of the train companies. I'm sure K-Line thought "they could impress the girl" but as we all know now, they couldn't afford it. They won the battle but lost the war.
Ironically probably the best thing K-Line introduced in the past few years wasn't scale anything... it was the redesigned 027 swithch and their new SuperStreets. Too bad their focus wasn more heavily on these kinds of products. SuperStreets is a loss for the hobby... their scale stuff really isn't aside from some of the die-cast cars and their full-length passenger cars.
So I wholheartedly disagree and I think the largest segment of buyers wants more affordable, more practical trains. And when the Lionel-MTH lawsuit finally becomes old news, maybe the only companies left standing will be Williams, RMT and Atlas... and even Atlas has recognized the significance of the 027 market.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
It seems that your typical serious train buyer would rather buy one scale diesel for $400 with all the bells and whistles verses four 027 diesels for $100 each. Both Lionel and Atlas have come out with scale conventional engines in the $200 range such as the Lionel SD-40T-2 and Trainman RSD-5. Both are nice engines. Many people prefer scale because they are railfans and want their equipment to look right.
Licensing was just a small part of that article Doug.
The key issues (as I read them) were adressing the reached untapped buyers with affordable products and carefully assessing new products viability and profitability. Scale consumers have been spoiled rotten by the trains companies willingness to produce products from expensive new tooling that can just barely pay for themselves at their given list price point. Blowouts further reduce the profit margins on these new products. Calabrese said no one shouold expect Lionel to contine to produce the vast selection of products that cannot recoup their costs - BUT how this sits with the very vocal minority of this hobby remains to be seen. Remember, it is not the novice with a kid's train layout that corners the execs at YORK.
When I was a kid, my dad wanted to buy a piece of land behind our home as a road was being constructed. He came back furious, saying he wanted to pay for a piece of land, not pay for the road to be constructed. This picture is what is partially wrong with the hobby. Many of the across the board price increases even on basic products, are to help pay for the expense of the higher end more costly products that won't sell if they were realistically priced where they should be.
For example, many want a Centercab switcher made. It's done and made. No more asking, just open your wallet because it's brass and expensive. Now a Centercab if approached along the lines of the RMT BEEP or the Lionel Docksider might very well be a hit. But those compromises will obviously not please the vocal minority.
Calabrese said a lot of things in that article, but I'm not going to believe any of it until I actually see the catalogs and see the products that Lionel needs to make to accomplish his goals. Lionel would do well to remember that many of us chose K-Line years ago over Lionel because it wasn't scale, it was well made and far more affordably priced over Lionel equal products. And it was the foolish headfirst dive into the scale side of the arena that put K-Line out of business. K-Line simply put, forgot their early loyal customers.
If Calabrese and Lionel cannot figure this out (and the jury is still out whether they can.... meanwhile Neil Young is up in the hills working on the next unaffordable advancement in TMCC), Walter Matuch and RMT already have figured it out and the verdict is in. RMT is the best thing to happen in this hobby in the past 5 years. Bob's photo above (along with the other enthusiastic comments elsewhere) speaks eons of this.
If the foolishness of this hobby can be summed up in one sentence, it's that after 10 years, the digital control users in this hobby still number under 30% and yet this is the main thrust of the manufacturers efforts - along with scale products that end up as major blowouts inorder to sell.
The big large engines are best left as Hallmark ornaments until the market is healthy enough for the intoductions of these products to completely on their own, recoup their investement/development/tooling costs.
I reread that Calabrese piece. It looks as if he had his way, Lionel would be more judicious in what it produces for the hobby market and really expand the licensing of sets.
Bob Keller
HI Bob, of course I understand that size matters - at least for trains (Boy, that was a quick recovery!). I just know that there are others besides me, who don't view smaller loco size as a con, but a pro. Just wish there was another way of saying it. Like I said, when I read the review of an otherwise nice scale loco, I view the fact it's full scale as a major CON.
That said, just to show I am an Equal Opportunity Wisenheimer (the EOW, the law of the comedian)...
fjerome: on your wish that someone would do a Lionmaster Veranda - let's let Hallmark make that one!
On the serious side, Jerry Calabrese pretty clearly spelled out what the future of Lionel products will be in the last issue of OGR. Of course, words are one thing and actual actions are another. Calabrese isn't the first to realize that the marketing efforts (and product offerings) are one-sided lopsided at best. Various industry people (including others at Lionel) have spoken of what Calabrese did for the past 16 years. The news that the train market and the typical train buying market are lopsided comes as no news. What would be news would be the introduction of more affordable smaller intro products - and some undated ones at that, and not just the same ol' ones that have been in starter sets for the past sevberal decades.
What Lionel needs to do is make some decent products along the lines of the RMT Beep, Buddy and Beef. They have access to the K-Line tooling ,so we'll see if they have the wisdom to bring out some of the more affordable smaller former K-Line products like the Alco and the S-2.
But I'll believe it when I see it. Talk is cheap. What the market really needs are some affordable well made (cheap to use the word very loosely) trains. Lionel could take a lesson from RMT and leave the big steamers to Hallmark for a while.
Sorry Bob, but this is just too tempting. So to mimic your CTT product reviews...
Cons - Greatly reduced pulling power due to lack of motor
Pros - For the first time in ages, Lionel makes a scale proportioned replica that looks too small next to 027 types of products.
Bob, I think CTT has come a long way in the past few years in editorial content, not that it was ever bad to begin with. At one time, I might have considered it a draw choosing between OGR and CTT for differing reasons, but not anymore.
But when you review smaller products, I don't know why you list the smaller size as a con, like you did with the Williams Alco Postwar reissues. I would imagine most scale folks know as postwar reissues, these are not scale proportioned. I actually consider smaller size a BIG plus, especially in these days where the vast majority of products made are clearly scale proportioned.
If the same standard were applied both ways, then the recent review of the Atlas SD40 would clearly have to state under CONS that the loco is too big to look good with smaller 027 layouts.
Ah, can't please everyone, huh? On the other hand Bob, I'm certain you and the gang at CTT are trying!
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