What's wrong with me? (rhetorical question!)

[thor]

I just read that thread on 'Scale Trains' and tried to reply with a quote but couldn't select and CUT the unwanted material except by backspacing so its easier to post a new message.

Well said Brianel027 regarding 'imagination' - exactly so.

I have read elsewhere messages to the effect that the reason why manufacturers are losing their shirts is because of the demands of 'scale' enthusiasts?  Well I find that hard to believe, I can believe that manufacturers respond to trends, they'd be nuts if they didn't but I doubt very much if they are so insecure as to hock the farm because some nut job expressed pique at not being able to get some obscure loco and then went bellyup when the enthusiasts wouldn't purchase it because it was one rivet shy of a load!

Someone on OGR mentioned Ameritrains which I duly checked out and lo and behold, exactly what I have been wanting, basically four wheelers.   Which is what gave rise to the title of this post.  I'm blessed if I can understand WHY I should find these rudimentary pieces of rolling stock so attractive but there's something about that cheap(ish) and cheerful tinplate that just works for me better than much more lifelike semi-scale products.

Its an inconsistent eccentricity. I dont much care for the 4 wheeler locos, not when theres that much overhang but the same mechanism and the same overall crudity would work fine for a tank engine it just exceeds my capacity to suspend disbelief for a main line locomotive.  On the other hand though, I'd rather have that overhang than a much better looking model made of plastic, after all one can always add a bogie/truck if it bothers one THAT much.

Its not just me though. We took our 3 yr old surrogate daughter (actual niece) to FAO Schwarz to choose herself some toys and given a choice of a dolls teaset in china, plastic or tinplate she chose the tinplate one and then went on to select two more tinplate toys.  My wife and I had been discussing this "what makes a superior toy" issue on the journey in and I bet her that Asherah would go for tinplate based on my own prejudices as a child. So ever since then Tammy (my wife) and I have been having an on and off discussion about the nature of toys and why this is attractive and that is not.

I think one of the attractions of metal is that it takes paint so well. The finish always seems super glossy but theres definitely a tactile component to the matter as well.  Even if one made a plastic and metal locomotive weigh the same and have the same depth of gloss, the 'CLINK!' versus 'CLICK!' sound feels somehow better and sort of has a 'quality' to it that plastic cannot.

Whereas I'm very impressed with FasTracks performance, I actually prefer tubular tracks appearance (and sound) and its what I would have bought had I not got an oval of the former with my first train set. 

I'm unable to express this subjective issue any better. Does it make any sense to anyone else? 

 

[chuck]

Makes perfect sense to me.  These are toys, period.  They were meant to played with, period.   Somewhere/somehow these aspects  have gotten lost in  collector mentality and scale obsessionism.  It's almost like we can't admit or accept that as adults we are playing with toys?

[nblum]

You seem quite OK to me :).   Chuck seems to understand you too.  I've also noticed that strange middle rail that rivet counters don't seem all that upset by.  But put the wrong number on a loco and some people go ballistic.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Anonymous]

I really like the scale realism of the current offerings, but not to a point that if the locomotive is missing a row of rivets or is 1 foot short of scale I wouldn't be happy with it.  I also like the alien suspension car, holloween loco and cars too - heck I run'em both

Later,

Dan

[Anonymous]

Makes perfect sense to me.  These are toys, period.  They were meant to played with, period.   Somewhere/somehow these aspects  have gotten lost in collector mentality and scale obsessionism.  It's almost like we can't admit or accept that as adults we are playing with toys?

I, too, understand what Thor is saying. But, Chuck, I respectfully disagree with your take on the collector mentality and scale obsessionism. Collectors collect, scale guys like realism, and many others simply enjoy the toy in toy trains. These are three different but valid approaches to this wonderful hobby.

I'm also tired of the argument that three rails means we should only look at them as toys. And, those of us who are hi-railers would be better served by going into two rail O scale. Would that be considered a toy train mentality?

How about this for an analogy? Let's say you wanted a piece of art to put on your wall. Let's also say you want some sort of pastoral scene. What would you choose? Would you select an oil painting, a water color, or a fine art photograph? Is one artform better than another? Is the photographer any less an artist than the painter? If you chose a painting and I picked a  watercolor, is your choice better than mine?

[chuck]

You can slice and dice it anyway you want to, but I feel the root problem is that some people just don't feel comfortable with the concept of adults playing with toys.  We call it "model railroading" and  it's a "hobby".  OK, you say toMAYto, I say toMAHto.  If you're having fun, keep having fun and not worry about it.  If you're not having fun, find something else to do that is fun.

[cpsteamer]

My previous layout encompassed the best of both worlds to me. O on the bottom level -highly scenicked and TMCC. The upper layout satisfied my ties to my past - all Marx tin with all the Marx tin accessories. The only plastic on that level was  pair of NYC diesels to pull the coaches. One of these days I'll get started on the new layout which again will include all the tin on it's own level. Because the Marx is on the upper level and toward the back the tin trains because of their smaller size also add some forced perespective to the layout.

[3railguy]

It's all a matter of tastes. Lithograph tinplate is cheerful and funky. A Lionel 263E which is far from prototypical is just as much a work of art as a DGRW scale tunnel motor.

 

[brianel027]

Thor, there's nothing wrong with you, nor with many of the regualr posters here on CTT.

The problem is not "scale" and it isn't "toy" either. The problem is "pride" and "extreme." I've been going through back issues of my train magazines. Many of the train companies admit that there is little profit made on the new scale items due to all the investment in tooling and the small production runs. One of the main points of the MTH lawsuit stated in so many words that with the alledged theft of the MTH engineering drawings, Lionel was able to produce similar items with less down time, thus beating MTH to market and causing MTH financial loss due to the thin margins on these products.

Many feel the lawsuits are costing the hobby by diverting money from tooling. Although the lawsuits must be costly, the big expense the train companies have is tooling along with the associated product development. I believe Mike Wolf has said MTH has something along the lines of $10M invested in DCS. Have they made that back on sales of DCS alone? I doubt it. In the famous CTT interview with Mike Wolf (that got obliterated due to background screen) Mike talked about why he demanded payment for product so quickly and why he was so unflexible on this: tooling and product development was the reason, and it still is. In 1997, MTH stated they had invested $10M in tooling in the previous 3 years only - and that doesn't include DCS.

MTH finally intoduced the SD90MAC under the Rugged Rails banner, stripped the electronics save for the horn and reverse circuit board, and RAISED the price $30.00. Sorry, but I don't want to pay for scale products by buying traditional ones. The removal of the extra electronics should have more than compensated for any rise in production costs due to fuel increases. $30 for a basic all plastic Lionel stater car is too much too... I'm willing to pay for a train car, not for the correction costs of fixing chuff rates.

I'm not picking on MTH. Look at K-Line's recent catalogs and count all the brand new scale items that all came from totally new tooling developed from scratch. Costly? You bet. It's the one reason K-Line went out of business. Look at Lionel: when did they start introducing all these new scale products? When they closed the American plant to divert the higher US labor costs into new product development. Lionel's list prices have not dropped at all since the move to China, even with the dirt cheap labor. Labor is not the issue: tooling is.

Some of the scale guys will never be happy: they want precise detail, exact prototype, mind boggling selection and all at blowout pricing. Duh, doesn't work! Example: K-Line. I read all these comments that everyone wishes there was a scale proportioned 44-ton Centercab Switcher... there already is one. But it's brass, it's expensive and it will not be a blowout. Oh well.

The scale improvements in the hobby mean a lot to many. There are those who have re-entered the hobby due to the new improvements. I'm not against the scale end of the hobby. The problem is not scale products, but TOO MANYscale products which the market CANNOT realistically support (once again, example: K-Line).

But the train importers continue to introduce these products in sometimes repetitive and other times foolish quantites because they are in such a do-or-die competitive mode towards each other. Even the Bible speaks of the foolishness of pride and arrogance. We all know there is no love between the train importers: MTH and Lionel hate each other and I don't think that's overstated. You can bet absolutely no tears were shed in Columbia, MD. or Mount Clemens over the fall of K-Line. You can also bet that Lionel will more than likely do no more with the K-Line product line than they have to by agreement. They don't actually own the tooling yet, so it is unlikely that some K-Line products (like their superior Timken truck) would be used on Lionel cars. If Lionel OWNED the tooling, this might be another story.

Think of K-Line this way: for years they made mostly traditionally sized "toy" trains with a few scale items, and managed to stay in business, prosper and grow. Compare the 1995 catalog and the 2005 catalog. K-Line had a (whatever the number) $6-$10M debt with Sanda Kan that was not from the MARX origin products that many of us wished had been continued. It wasn't the "scale" direction itself... it was that they jumped head-first into the scale direction while forgetting about their original customers.

For most of us, this is a hobby. For the train importers, this is their paycheck, so it's very serious. And with the lawsuits, down and dirty serious. I don't know the actual sales figures, but I'm certain many of today's modelers got their start in the hobby with either a lower cost Lionel set or a MARX set. Yet what products from the past bring acclaim? The scale Hudson from 1937, the TrainMaster, the F-3, Magnetraction, Super '0' track, etc. You can bet there's far more tin 027 track out there than Super '0' even if Super '0' is superior. And you can bet far more kids started with Alco's and Scouts than with TrainMasters and F-3's.

The "low-end" of the hobby seldom brings glory or acclaim, but it does introduce the hobby to folks in numbers that the high-end products cannot and do not... simple as that. Jerry Calabrese talked about this funnel concept in OGR recently, so we'll see how serious he is about this when the next Lionel catalog comes out. The scale guys are already drooling for tons of new scale products, waiting anxiously for correct chuff rates, impatient for the next version of TMCC... BUT these items DO NOT address the core issues Mr. Calabrese himself brought up. Lots of new TOY trains would, but I cannot imagine the wrath that Lionel will face if they don't continue in the recent direction of 90% scale products, 10% toy.

The only new traditional cars Lionel has tooled up in the past couple decades are the Spine Car and the Waffle Box Car... that's the entire list. Does any one realize Lionel has not tooled up one single new "replica" traditionally sized diesel in decades. The Docksider came only last year. Yet this is what needs to be done. I've been saying this for years, and the recent success of the Ready Made Toys products proves me right on the mark: There is an ignored majority in this market that has been aching (though not as loudly) for a product like the "Beep." The price is right, the quality is right and the prototype and scale proportion is, uh.... ah.... close enough. Funny too, how K-Line had their own "Buddy" that they felt wasn't worth making... funny how K-Line went belly up and RMT realized the "Buddy" is very well worth making.

Take a look at the news: no one likes extremists, be they political, financial or religious, either on the far left or the far right. Look at John Lennon when he was a Beatle: successful, popular. When he went solo and lost the balancing effect of Paul McCartney, he went to the far left. He might have gained respect, but he lost a lot of popularity and a lot of sales.

The train importers could learn a valuable lesson from the example of this, and start getting a little more balanced and in the middle of the road with their product selection, new introductions and pricing.

[Anonymous]

I agree with most all of what you wrote, Brian, but ya gotta jack up that type font size a bit in your post.  A bit hard to read, even on a large monitor.

[Jumijo]

Everyone enjoys their hobby in their own way. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your trains. I find all of it appealing. I gravitate to the O27 stuff. More of a fun factor associated with it for me. The scale stuff is nice, but with it comes an HO scale mentallity. A seriousness that I just don't want to deal with. I like to run trains (fast) around our 2 loops and watch the steamers billow smoke. I like to sound the whistles and horns to the point of "enough already". I love watching my kids learn to use the throttle controls and the activation buttons.

When I go to shows, I buy more items under the tables than on the tables. I've found that one does not have to spend a lot of money to get a kick out of toy trains.

Some people dig tinplate. Some go for postwar. Others are into scale. Whatever floats your boat. It's all good. If you're having a good time, you're doing it right.

Jim

[nblum]

Dennis, it's not that the third rail should always connote "toys."  Although, along with Chuck, I'm sorry to say that no matter how seriously some folks take themselves, running miniature trains, except in a museum setting, is play, not work or art in any definition I'll buy.

 It's that the third rail means, at least to me, one ought to have a sense of humor and perspective about things, which some of the scale guys do not.  Of course, some of the toy train collectors have no sense of humor or perspective either. :)

A hobby is not about perfection for most people, it's about entertainment, and like other aspects of life, involves compromise.  Having the third rail is a big compromise for scale appearance.  Thus recognizing that it is not financially feasible to make absolutely correct scale models for reasonable prices is something I expect of even the scale modeler crowd. 

Going ballistic about a particular small defect or deviation from a cherished prototype is a sign of lack of a sense of proportion and reasonability IMO. If scale fidelity is the be-all and end-all of one's interests in model railroading, I would submit that three rail O gauge is, in particular, a VERY odd place to be.

Ranting and raving about particular fantasy paint schemes or gaffes in scale details is more hilarious and sad than to be condemned :).   It's a product, not a religion or law handed down on Mt. Sinai, for goodness sake.

[cnw1995]

I am fascinated by the difference in the response of friends and visitors to the layout - that in my opinion reveals an interesting perspective on the hobby. Of course, it's personal and anecdotal but maybe interesting in the context of this thread. I find there is still a general perception about 'Lionel trains' that resonates with the 'public' that is totally absent when I invited people to see my smaller scale layouts. Something the current CEO of Lionel has also mused upon. In those days, to paraphrase, the response would be this is interesting but weird. Now, it is more wow, look at the lights/sound/movement... my dad/granddad had these... I'll bet they're worth a lot of money.

When I get right down to it,  personally, it is easier to work with these models in this size and it is a hecka lot easier for me to deal with the wiring. I admire the heck out of scale layouts but enjoy the 'lack of pressure' I would put on myself - again purely a personal thing - to duplicate such fidelity.

[lionelsoni]

I think I'll take this opportunity to complain about people who complain that other people think that toy-model trains are too realistic or not realistic enough.

[FJ and G]

Dan,

Nice beagle you got there. Looks like mine!

[Anonymous]

Neil,

You said:

"Going ballistic about a particular small defect or deviation from a cherished prototype is a sign of lack of a sense of proportion and reasonability IMO. If scale fidelity is the be-all and end-all of one's interests in model railroading, I would submit that three rail O gauge is, in particular, a VERY odd place to be."

I don't disagree with the above. There's always going to be that loud fanatical fringe on either end in any group. I submit that most of us are reasonable and respect one another's views. To me, along with the play value, I enjoy it as a three dimentional art form. I get great satisfaction in creating a miniature world that almost looks real when photographed. What's wrong with that?

The funny thing is most people who view my layout never notice the third rail. 

[nblum]

"To me, along with the play value, I enjoy it as a three dimentional art form. I get great satisfaction in creating a miniature world that almost looks real when photographed. What's wrong with that?"

Nothing at all, of course.  And your photography proves your point and the virtue of your approach.  Art is very much in the eye of the beholder in any case, even in the world of real "art."   Some folks think Robert Motherwell was a brilliant artist, others think he's something less than a graffiti artist, for example.

Your use of the term fanatical fringe is quite apt, and all hobbies and walks of life have such individuals who haven't learned the civilized boundary between their own views and a decent respect for the views of others. 

[Jumijo]

While I have a live and let live approach to the hobby, I can't help but agree that 3-rail O is an odd place for a scale model railroader to be. the smaller scales, and 2 rail O seem like more logical choices for that type of mindset. No?

I'm an O27 guy, and if I won a huge lottery, I'd still be one, but that's my thing.

To each his own. I think the vast majority of posters on this forum share that attitude.


Jim

[Anonymous]

"While I have a live and let live approach to the hobby, I can't help but agree that 3-rail O is an odd place for a scale model railroader to be. the smaller scales, and 2 rail O seem like more logical choices for that type of mindset. No?"

Three rail is the logical choice for me. When I run my Lionel trains, I'm connecting with my past. The difference is, I can now duplicate in miniature what I could only imagine back then. Two rail O scale doesn't have that emotional tie.

[Jumijo]

It's all good, Dennis. No offense intended.

3-rail does send people on a nostalga trip. Not only do I connect with my past, but with my children as well. Hopefully, somewhere in the future, my kids will look back fondly at our times spent together running trains.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Dan,

Nice beagle you got there. Looks like mine!

Thanks! She is a ball of fire, about 2 years old now.  We got her, Brandy, from TAPS which is a no-kill shelter in Pekin, IL.  She even came with AKC papers, I just can't imagine why someone got rid of her - but they say shelters are full of beagles and hounds, breaks my heart.  I've seen you pics of your beagle on your outside layout, cute!

[Anonymous]

A very interesting topic.

To add my two cents to the discussion about if trains are serious business or toys to play with, it really depends on your perspective.  It's a personal thing.  As much as I enjoy running my trains, I consider myself a collector first and don't think of my trains as "toys".  I actually think of my trains more as "art".  To me, collecting toy trains is just like collecting paintings of trains-they are representations of real trains.  Just as with paintings, that does not have to be a 100% completely detailed representation.  To use art terms, scale model trains represent realism and toy trains represent impressionism.  I've always loved both realistic and impressionist paintings.  (I despise abstract/expressionistic artwork, but that's neither here nor there.)  Think of those wonderful art deco advertisements that the railroads put out promoting their streamliners.  They're hardly what you could call "realistic", with plenty of details being omitted, but they're exciting and romantic and pretty to look at.  To me, many toy trains are just the same thing-a stylized and romanticized version of a real train-and appeal to me for the same reasons.  While many toy trains aren't accurate, there are very few that are geniunely unrealistic.  By "unrealistic", I mean something like, say, a diamond smokestack and cowcatcher placed on a bullet train.  Even totally made-up prototypes from Lionel, etc. are easy to imagine having existed in real life.

Acquiring these beautiful trains and displaying them is something I enjoy very much.  When I say "displaying", I don't just mean placing on shelves, but creating an environment for them to fit in with-in other words, a layout with tinplate toy accessories.  Whenever I get a new station or bridge or something, I love finding a place for it on my layout and rearranging things for it to look good.  Seeing the trains run is great, but a secondary enjoyment for me.  Creating a layout also fits in with the idea of toy trains as art, as it involves the creator being an artist themselves by using their imagination and artistic skills to come up with something that is pleasing to the eye.

I'm not just into toy trains, but have HO as well.  I like different trains for different reasons.  I love having realistic models of trains that look like full-size ones I'm familiar with.  For example, I have an HO model of Canadian Pacific Alco FA #4090, the prototype of which is on on display at Cranbrook, B.C.  I love this engine because it is a miniature version of an actual prototype that I am familiar with.  By contrast, I also have the Tyco HO chromed Silver Streak and Golden Eagle diesels and cabooses and love them just becuse they're so cool-looking!

I'm not criticizing those who see their trains as toys, it's just a different view of the hobby.  Many people who take the "playing with toys" approach grew up playing with trains as kids and want to recpture that piece of their childhood and there's nothing wrong with that.  For me, it's simply my love of trains, which does go back to childhood, but childhood nostalgia isn't a driving factor.  For toy trains, I stick almost excluively to prewar and postwar.  I'm 19 years old and never grew up with them.  I love the look and feel of them and the historical aspect appeals to me greatly. I love history and finding out the details of the manufacturers of trains I own and the connection these histories have with world history in general appeals to me enormously.  I also love the fact that these trains are from another era and represent a piece of that era.  Collecting itself is also great fun.  The chase is just as enjoyable as the actual find-just like fishing.

Anyway, that's my approach to the hobby.  Basically, though, miniature (model or toy) trains are a hobby that can be enjoyed on many different levels and in many different ways.

To get back to your original post, Thor, I like plastic trains, but agree there's just something special about tinplate trains that plastic doesn't have.  Technically speaking, injection-molded plastic is more realistic, but lithography can produce so many details that you don't notice in plastic.  I love the many unique touches that the artists (and artists is indeed the term, something which is hard to say about the guy who drafts the blueprints for a plastic model) at Marx and other manufacturers came up with.  For exmple, I love passenger cars and stations that include people in the lithography.  It's details like that that give lithography its charm.  Like you say, imagination is definitely part of the appeal and looking at lithographed toy trains, you can see what fertile imaginations the people who created them had.

I like that story about the tea set.  It's really too bad that they don't make toys out of tin anymore (well, not for kids, anyway).  In case you don't know, in the United States, tin toys for children were officially outlawed in 1972 with the Child Toy Safety Act.  I own a tin sheet with the lithography for six Marx gateman houses that were never punched out because of this law coming into effect.  I suppose that tin toys were becoming scarcer anyway because of plastic being cheaper, but it's still sad.