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Scale Question

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Scale Question
Posted by traindaddy1 on Saturday, July 8, 2006 7:02 PM
Hi! When I was working with "HO", I knew that the scale was 1:87. Now that I am working with "O" and "O27", I am wondering what would the respective scales be?

I have Lionelville gorgi at 1:50 and have seen ads for people showing 1:50 for "O27" and 1:43 for "O". My scale conversion chart shows "O" scale at 1:48. Because of my limited space, I have been concentrating on "O27" rolling stock.

I guess what I am really asking is: Is there a noticeable difference between 1:50 and 1:43?

Thank you.
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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Saturday, July 8, 2006 7:28 PM
O scale in this country is 1:48, it is 1:43.5 in England (7mm to the foot). The track gauge of 1.25: is too wide, but not that noticable IMHO. Lionel O is 1:48. Lionel 027 is smaller but is not reduced equally in all 3 dimensions. It is close to 1:55, a size made by Industrial Rail. Also, some of the large articulated locomotives in 3 rail are undersized - some are as small as 1:64 which is really S scale but they run on O 3 rail track.

I don't think you'll notice the difference between 1:43 and 1:50 unless you put them next to each other.

Enjoy
Paul
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 8, 2006 8:28 PM
It's the "people figures" that drive me nuts. They are listed as "O", but every brand seems to make a different size...MTH being the smallest, going on up to Preiser being the largest, with the rest somewhere in-between. Joe
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Posted by luther_stanton on Saturday, July 8, 2006 8:52 PM
I have a mixture of O-27 and O (Standard O). I believe Lionel calls their true 1:48 scale dimensioned items “Standard O”. My opinion is that some of the prototypical smaller cars in Standard O look OK next to O-27 gauge, such as hoppers, but if you compare two like cars, say box cars, in “O” (i.e., Lionel O-27) and “Standard O” the difference is pretty noticeable side by side. Also, the proportions of a Standard O engine pulling O-27 cars can look a little “off” at times, as can Standard O cabooses with O-27 cars.

I usually will keep them segregated and run O-27 with O-27 and Standard O with Standard O. I have not been buying nearly as much Standard O as of late, focusing more on the O-27 pieces.

- Luther
Luther Stanton ---------------------------------------------- ACL - The Standard Railroad of the South
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 8, 2006 9:00 PM
Like Luther, I have some of both sizes--traditional/O27 and scale (1:48), but tend to prefer the smaller items because I have a small layout and a small amount of space available. It does become a bit difficult at times to select proper-size figures and vehicles for O gauge because of the variations in "scales," but I've found that anything around 1:50 works well enough for my O27 trains.
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, July 9, 2006 7:50 AM
Personally, (as a rookie I say) I think there is a very noticeable difference, particularly in certain stock. This is probably the one thing I wish I had understood more about early on. With limited space I much prefer the O27 and will focus on that in the future. I'm running mixed and it looks Ok and I'll probably leave it that way, but had I known more I would have initially purchased differently.
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Posted by csxt30 on Sunday, July 9, 2006 9:22 AM
I'd just like to say that I found in the Diecast cars, that they aren't always the scale they say they are ! Also, I've found that 1/43rd. scale cars, I think look the best & go real well with some of the buildings, like the K-line diner & MTH mcDonalds.
Thanks,
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Posted by traindaddy1 on Sunday, July 9, 2006 1:40 PM
Pau/Joe/Luther/Allan/Aydaspop/John et al. MANY THANKS.
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Posted by bibeaud on Sunday, July 9, 2006 8:30 PM
Speaking of O scale and O gauge.......what is OO gauge? Is this just "old" O-31?
David
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Posted by csxt30 on Sunday, July 9, 2006 8:42 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by bibeaud

Speaking of O scale and O gauge.......what is OO gauge? Is this just "old" O-31?


This link may help. be sure & scroll down . I think Lionel made it in the late 30s.
http://www.thortrains.net/scale1.htm
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Posted by pmilazzo on Sunday, July 9, 2006 11:59 PM
As long as you don't mix O27 with scale in the same consist, you can have both on your layout and they can both coexist without detracting from each other (especially if they are in motion). I know many people including myself that gets away with doing this. If you must mix O27 and scale, try to use flatcars or gondola to break up the consist...You can also run your O27 on upper levels and toward the back of the layout to give a slight sense of forced perspective. This illusion totally negates the size differences and makes your layout look and feel more impressive!
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Posted by brianel027 on Monday, July 10, 2006 12:36 AM
My name gives away my leanings, but out of the necessity of having a small layout.

And since the train companies are putting all their investment capital into scale stuff, I have found if I want some "modern" looking smaller trains, I have to paint and build them myself. I've built some 027 TTUX cars, Coil Cars and smaller locos. One thing I find is you have to thorow away the scale ruler and go by what "feels right." It's kinda like water color painting... you don't really paint the sky like you can with oils, you instead give an impression of it.

That's not to say you don't do some measuring and keep some kind of "scale" concept in mind, but you just have to bend it a bit more. For example, I shorten the height of the shells of all my MP-15 K-Line switchers. It's a pretty close to scale proportioned loco to begin with, but the height of the cab towers above most the kinds of cars I run. Shortening the shell height makes the loco look better with the other cars and actually makes it "appear" to be bigger. The best way to see it is to compare each version next to eachother. Same goes fro the Lionel GP-9's... they look so much better on a small layout with the shortened height on the shell. I made my own RS-3 starting with a K-Line MP-15 chassis... I like my so much more I'll never buy the Lionel one again. Again, it just looks so much better on a small layout, regardless of precision scale.

Take a good look at some of the older MARX tin lithographed trains. Hardly prototypical scale dimensions, and yet they truly have a great look to them. Even with the simple lithography details, there's no mistaking them - they're trains!!

As far as die-cast vehicles, I lean towards slightly smaller ones than the normal 1:43 ones. Some of the Ertl tractors look just right on a smaller layout. Plasticville buildings are not full scale, but straddle the line between 0 and S, yet they look fine on most layouts. Some of the now defunct K-Lineville buildings, like the Police Station are even smaller, but are good for plascing at the back of the layout to create the illusion of depth. Or by adding a basement to the Police Station along with cutting out a loading door and adding a loading dock, you can make the same building appear a little larger. Same can be done for the Plasticville Fire Station, which I turned into a factory with some cosmetic kitbashing.

This is kind of a tough time for a smaller layout train guys. There was once a time when trains were toys and mean for fun to be played with. Now they have to be precision scale replicas with precise details that still stand up to rugged running as the older ones did.

On the other hand, as the train companies beat each other up to win the wallets of the finicky ever-demanding scale side of the hobby, prices have dropped quite a bit on the older less than scale items, especially the used common ones without boxes. Of course, we do have RMT - the best thing to happen for 027 operators in the past 5 years.

It's like the song from a few years back, DIY. If the manufacturers won't recongnize there are still "traditional 027" operators out there, you "Do It Yourself" and make (or kitbash) your own. So throw away the scale ruler and just have fun running trains .... kinda like the way it used to be.

brianel, Agent 027

"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."

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Posted by traindaddy1 on Monday, July 10, 2006 6:09 AM
Pmilazzo/Brianel027:

Really great food for thought! Many thanks.
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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Monday, July 10, 2006 6:12 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by bibeaud

Speaking of O scale and O gauge.......what is OO gauge? Is this just "old" O-31?

OO gauge/scale is 1:76 (4mm). Originally made in England. Because the English locomotives are smaller than ours, motors wouldn't fit in HO models but it used HO gauge track. It's still made in England for English model trains. In this country, the gauge was corrected and several manufacturers made locomotives and cars for it, one of which was Lionel.

Here's a link to the SIG for it. http://www.getnet.com/~dickg/nmra/sigs/AmericanOO/AmericanOO.html

Enjoy
Paul
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Posted by chuck on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 3:06 PM
Some of the traditional items are scale, but they are scaled to pre-war (WW-2) prototypes.  When these are painted in modern schemes and have modern reporting marks that have nothing to do with their originl size they become "traditional".  If it looks good (to you) and it runs well on your track/layout, I wouldn't worry over it.
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Posted by traindaddy1 on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 7:16 PM
Chuck: What, me worry?  Too "old" to worry!  Thanks.
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Posted by brianel027 on Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:13 AM

Chuck makes a good point. Although many of the postwar train products are not to full-scale proportions (like the 6464 box cars), some are very, very close (like the NW2 switcher). Real trains during the postwar era of Lionel were also smaller too. The Crown Line (now owned by Weaver) Box Cars and Reefers are modeled after these smaller original prototypes: Although they are full scale dimensions, the models look good with traditionally sized trains because the trains they are modeled after were smaller.

 

Reading about the history of Conrail provides some interesting observations. When Conrail was formed, the preexisting lines were in a state of disarray, physically and financially. Conrail quickly started ditching the previous owners smaller rail cars because more profit could be made from one larger train car than two smaller ones. Conrail for example, quickly scrapped two-bay hoppers in favor of larger 3 and 4 bay hoppers. Same goes for the traditional 40-foot boxcar. The Lehigh Valley, Reading, Erie Lackawanna and Penn Central had large numbers of larger boxcars and these were repainted and kept in service. While the Jersey Central had mostly older smaller 40 foot box cars and these were quickly retired.

So a hint for a smaller train layout: you have to flub your idea of scale a little bit. For example, the K-Line 764-series modern steel box car is a scale proportioned current standard box car, but when placed on a smaller layout, I think of it as a modern hi-cube box car, since the K-Line model is larger than your typical 6464-series box car. The Williams boxcars are also a little larger than the 6464 style. As are the older pre-scale MTH Railking boxcars. So in my mind, I let these larger models represent larger freight car prototypes on my layout.

In other ways, you simply have to compromise. Although many of the scale proportioned models will negotiate the smaller 027 curves, they also look silly doing so... the 13-inch K-Line flat cars come to my mind. I've taken busted Lionel spring-loaded dump cars and turned them into TTUX cars: The 10-inch length looks right (even if it is not scale) and the frame of the dump car somewhat mimics the TTUX type of car - certainly more so than just a simple flat car with trailers on it.

I've taken shells from simple tank cars, and scratch built new frames for them that mimic the look of the current modern looking tank car. Scale? No. But they give the look and the feel of more modern types of trains. My attitude towards this whole scale thing is to not worry about it. I run trains fro fun, not frustration. The 3-rail train importers have worried about scale - when they know full well that the margins are slim because they are making products for a minority of train buyers - and look where it's gotten them? Lawsuits over stolen technology and engineering, diminished sales, fewer train makers and fewer train retailers, increased financial strain because of excessive tooling, engineering and legal costs, etc.

Some will argue that the 3-rail train hobby is better today than ever. And while they may be so, it's beginning to look like you could make the argument that it is not. Realism is in your mind... kids have it! It's a little thing called imagination. I feel sorry for the folks who can't buy a train car unless it has the exact correct amount of rivets on it. As far as I see it, my trains look pretty real to me. And like many of the serious postwar fans here, I don't need digital control to have fun with my trains.

 

 

brianel, Agent 027

"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."

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Posted by trainmasterz on Thursday, July 13, 2006 12:50 PM

Youve said a mouthfull, and I agree.  I checked the tab and it says "Toy" trains, not "Model Railroader".  Lets layout some track and see who can pull the most rollingstock through the hills!  Too much cash is wasted on lawyers and whatnot and its taking away from people that just want to have some fun with an nice train set.SoapBox [soapbox]

Drew
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Posted by traindaddy1 on Thursday, July 13, 2006 3:50 PM
You guys are really great. Thanks so much for your replies.
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Posted by dk99358 on Saturday, July 15, 2006 8:29 AM

Most of the real trains going by my place have different size cars.  Most noticeable is the height difference on boxcars. 

That said, I don't like the looks of extreme differences in my trains either.  I've got some scale Weaver boxcars that don't go well with traditional boxcars but I think the Weaver two bay covered hoppers mix in nicely.  I like to use tank cars to seperate extreme height differences.  I think it 'flows' smoother than the sudden drop to flat and then the sudden jump up.  I don't seem to notice the width difference, only the height. 

I guess my point is that all you can do mix and match and see what you like.  Then relegate the extremes to run by themselves.

Dale 

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Posted by 3railguy on Saturday, July 15, 2006 9:30 AM

There is a prototype for everything. There are inconsistencys with real railroads as well. Railroad dimensional standards changed over the years as the demand to haul more tonnage increased. Tunnels and bridges were made taller and wider to allow for larger cars. This was pretty evident when railfanning in the 60's and 70's when you saw trains made up with early century and late century freight cars. 40 ft PS-1 boxcars for example dwarf prewar 40 ft USRA boxcars in height and width. When narrow gauge railroads were phased out, many narrow gauge cars were fitted with standard gauge trucks adding more inconsistency. They looked like S gauge cars on O gauge trucks.

John Long Give me Magnetraction or give me Death.

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