Old Transformers and DCC-TMCC

[danrunner]

I am looking at Lionel Z transformers and similar oldies that you can pick up at a good price, BUT I know nothing about electronics. Can these old-time transformers run the TMCC-DCC trains and support all of their features?

Example: with a hand-held controller(Cab!) can I make train's horns sound even though the transformer has no bell-whistle buttons? I assume they can, but I want to be sure.

Also, Zs and other old transformers...are they a pure sine wave?

Thanks for indulging this electronic dummy,

Dan

[Anonymous]

Dan
The postwar 275 ZWs[pure sine wave] have a net output of 180-90 watts[10 amps]. The wattage capacity can be routed all to one throttle or split between two or more throttles [for example,10 amps or 180 watts to one throttle,or 5 amps or 90 watts each to two separate throttles].
Reconditioned ZWs if needed with: new cord, rollers, binding posts and diodes replacing selenium discs for horn whistle operation [necessary only if used conventionally] are worth about $200. A good rule of thumb for purchasing throttle operated transformers is about $1 per watt [PowerHouses or "bricks" will be cheaper but of course have no throttle and are best used for Command operation or the Celebration series ZWs]. The MTH Z-4000 transformers have two separate 180 watt railpower throttles plus about 35-40 watts of auxilliary power capacity, thus the 400 watt [4000]rating.

The ZW [or Z-4K]with throttles set to 16-18 volts can supply power districts of a command control system, either TIU channel[s] on DCS or be used with a Command Base and Cab 1 for TMCC w/Railsounds 4.0. The whistle/horn is activated from Cab 1 or from the DCS Remote under Command Control--no activation necessary on the transformer lever.
If using an 55 year-old postwar 275 ZW it is best to have either cartrige fuses or aftermarket circuit breakers installed externally on the Hot circuit [A, D, etc, posts]of the secondary [output] side.
Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

You can use the old transformers to power the track in TMCC but you need the TMCC equipment to make the hand held cab work. The old transformer is turned on and set at about 16 volts and the TMCC signal is connected to the common or U connection of the transformer (outer rails) and all will work. In this case, you are using the older transformer simply as a power supply, nothing more.
The output from these older units is most likely a "pure" sine wave as it is very unlikely that there was a need back then for any thing else. LC circuits (inductive/capacitive) modify the sine wave into a sawtooth waveform, and any kind of half wave rectifier would make what is called "pulsating DC". A mono or bi-stable multivibrator will modify the wave form into something approaching a square wave and is approaching digital technology and some form of modulation. None of the motors or buzzers used for engines and accessories require anything other than 60hz AC fo function. The things equipped with TMCC take this AC and convert it to whatever the TMCC device needs by using any and all of the doo dads discussed above.
Hope this is not too confusing.

blabree

[danrunner]

Leonard, Blabree,

You guys are helping. I guess the same goes for 250 watt Zs and the 180 watt KWs as well as the ZWs you mentioned, etc.

So, it sounds like they're fine but circuit breakers are essential. I assume that's to protect the trains, accessories, etc. I also noticed many of the Zs get up to 25 watts per where the ZW only gets up to 20 watts per variable channel (sorry if the terminology is wrong). I assume that would be great for a loop of standard gauge I'm considering.

I thought the hand-held controllers would take care of any need for whistle buttons that are missing on an older transformer.

Any other input greatly appreciated. I'm learning a few things.

Thanks,

Dan

[Anonymous]

The older transformers have multple taps that allow you to set the output voltage but you have no control over current flow. The amps will flow following path of least resistance.

You can get 180 watt PH bricks pretty cheap and use these for track power/TIU feed with the appropriate cables. These already have fast acting breakers and you get the entire 10 amps. SInce they are just step down transformers, there is no modification of the sine wave.

[okiechoochoo]

Let me ask this question on this thread, I seem to be havning trouble getting it answered on other forum. Maybe I am asking it wrong but here goes. I want to run Williams engines but with some slow speed control. On older ZWs the start up voltage is about 6V and they start like jackrabbits. I know you can wire them in series but that does not apply to the steam engines which only have one motor. So I have heard that using the new ZW might work but what is the start up voltage on it. Also, I have heard if you use a Powerhouse and a TPC300 that the start up voltage gets really low like less than 5V and this will work. Is this true. Any help will be appreciated before I start buying power supplies.

[Anonymous]

Okie
The PowerHouse linked to a multiple speed step TPC is the best answer for incremental speed control.

Chuck
You are of course correct about the tappability of the pw ZW and the allocation of current by relative demand. I no longer use ZWs except for backup and on my test track. However, over time running two sub- 5 amp lighted passenger trains on separate pw ZW throttles, for separate districts, never was a a power balance problem as borne out by my panel amp meters. Different story if a derailment and short occurred, which illustrated your current "flow" point abruptly.

I favor PowerHouses[14] linked to TPCs[5] and all of mine except one TPC are original IC Controls units upfitted to the 1.3 series. On my shelf RR I use 5 180 watt PoHOs [with TMCC] feeding directly to 5 separate tracks thru cartridge fuse blocks. I have a TPC on standby for occasional conventional operation of older engines.

[lionelsoni]

The type Z is a 250-watt transformer that originally put out a range from about 6 to 24 volts. With modern power lines, it might put out a volt or two more; and it will run a little warmer than it did 60 years ago. It has four variable outputs, which are equivalent, even though two of them have smaller knobs. It can be modified to convert it to a range of 0 to 18 volts by disconnecting the fixed 6-volt winding.

It, like other Lionel postwar transformers, has a single 15-ampere circuit breaker. This can be unsafe if trains can be run from a block powered by one output to a block powered by another. You should add external circuit breakers or fuses if this is a possibility on your layout.

The type Z, like other Lionel postwar transformers, is truly a transformer, putting out a sine waveform.