Need help adjusting 362 barrel loader

[Anonymous]

I can't get the barrels to travel up the conveyor. They move toward the conveyor, then they fall when the hit the depression in front of the man, but they will not move from this point. I operate the loader at 12-14 volts, which is the range that the instruction sheeet suggests. I know that the copper oxide rectifier is good. Any info is appreciated.




Jim

[phillyreading]

Is the spacing from the track correct? Does it get enough voltage to it, maybe your wires are too small and not carrying enough voltage. For best operation I find that you need to wire the accessories straight from the transformer and not get power from the track.
Can you determine if all the mechanisms are working? Has a belt slipped off? To see if everything is working you will need to take off the cover plates if possible with a screwdriver and test the unit with the plates off.
Lee Fritz

[Anonymous]

Jim, Lee,

Are we all talking about the same thing here? I am familiar with the postwar 362, and I understand there is also a modern version. Certainly the postwar version does not have a belt anywhere in the mechanism.

Before I go any further, are you using the "large" wooden barrels, or something else?

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

wolverine49,

This is a postwar loader. I am using repro 362-78 barrels. These are the correct barrels for the loader.



Jim

[Anonymous]

Jim,

Is there any circumstance in which the barrels will climb the ramp? What happens if you place a single barrel halfway by hand at various points on the ramp, and run the power up and down? Is the device screwed down to the train table or "free standing" on a workbench? Try it both ways. (Obviously you can simulate screwing it down just by pressing on both ends of the platform with your hands.)

Do your instructions include adjustment advice? There are pretty clear adjustment instructions on the www.Lionel.com website, under Customer Service. (Admittedly these pages are for the modern version, but the mechanical portions seem to apply equally to the postwar type -- and they are reasonably clear. )

In my experience the old barrel loaders often seem to get squashed a little in storage. Try to make sure nothing is seriously bent out of shape, and the device is level.

From your description, it certainly sounds as if the rectifier disc is OK, but if all else fails to help you might replace it. (I have never had to do so.)

Beyond that, they are really pretty rugged, but there are two adjustments of the air-gap between the vibrator coil and the armature: the "coarse" adjustment via the unscrew-and-slide-the-part to-and-fro arrangement; and the "hammer method," which, despite its name, is designated the "fine" adjustment.

I have edited this post AFTER reading the post below. I'm sure ADCX Rob is accurately reporting the performance of his device, but my experience is that the 12-14 volt range works pretty well. Lionel says that each device was individually adjusted at the factory, so expect some variation between examples.

Not to overlook the obvious: in proper operation the barrels are placed vertically on the flat portion of the platform, travel toward the ramp, tip over, and "climb" the ramp on their sides.

wolverine49

[ADCX Rob]

If I ran my 362 at 14 volts, the barrels would be bouncing out and barely making it up the ramp. Ours works best at a very low setting on the 5-16 volt range of a dedicated 1033 transformer. It really looks like a conveyor at this voltage.

I have over the years accidentally leaned on the button several times with the setting up high and scared the begeezers out of myself with the loud BLAAAAAAAT off to my left!

Rob

[Anonymous]

wolverine49,

I tried placing a barrel at various places beyond the depression, and the barrel always moves backwards down the ramp until it gets back to the depression. This occurs regardless of the voltage applied to the loader. Right now, I have the loader on my kitchen floor. I hold the base to keep the loader from vibrating away from me. The idea behind this is to simulate the loader being held in place by the track clips and not screwed down. I should mention that I took the loader apart and restored the ramp. When I restored the ramp, I stripped the old paint, cleaned the ramp of any remaining paint remover, primed the ramp with Krylon gray primer, and finished with four thin coats of Krylon 1808 Maize Gloss spray paint. I gave the ramp a couple of days to dry before putting it back together. While I had it apart, I removed the coil from the ramp channel so I could poli***he coil housing. I reassembled everything as it was when I took it apart. The loader did work correctly before I took it apart.


Jim

[Anonymous]

Jim,

Hmmmmm.

It sure sounds as if something was re-installed back-to-front. The only thing I can think of is to look at the exploded diagrams and see whether you can find it.

The thing works on the principle of a "shaker table." (Not to be confused with a piece of dining room furniture of the same name.)

Another example is the magician's stunt of yanking a tablecloth out from under a set of dishes. What you are describing sound like the magician trying to shove the cloth back under the dishes. Something must be backwards, but without being able to see it I don't know what. Or maybe not -- it sounds like you are confident that you got it back together correctly.

The only other thing I can imagine is that the finish of the ramp is now TOO SMOOTH. The barrels have to have enough "purchase" on the ramp rails to remain in place as the ramp (eg the tablecloth) is pulled a fraction of an inch out from under them with each vibration. Maybe the vibration is just energizing the whole device more-or-less randomly, and gravity is pulling the barrels down the ramp. You might be able to test this by manually shaking the whole device a litlle with the power off. Long shot, for sure!

I'm not sure what might happen if the rectifier has been re-installed backwards -- assuming that you removed it. Maybe somebody knows....

Did you put a high gloss (smooth) finish on the barrels too? I continue to be haunted by the "lack of sufficient purchase" theory.

If you get it to work, please post what you did. I'm very curious.

Good luck!

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

wolverine49,

The paint I used is very close to what Lionel used in terms of color and gloss. I did not put any finish on the barrels, but I tried another set of barrels, and they worked a bit better. It is still not operating like it was before I took it apart. This has me puzzled.


Jim

[Anonymous]

Jim,

It has you puzzled. It has me bewildered.

It used to work; now it is not working. (Sounds like MicroSoft Windows.) SOMETHING has changed.

Assuming that your re-assembly is perfect (and it sounds as if it is) the only thing that we KNOW that has been altered is the finish on the rails -- and, by extension, the friction (purchase) between the rails and the barrels.

As I am otherwise out of ideas: it seems that, the friction (or lack thereof) is all that is left to try -- assuming that we haven't missed something up to now.
.
Whether tbe friction is now too little or too much is unclear, but it seems to be that if the thing is vibrating nicely, and the barrels tend to come DOWN the ramp (presumably under the sole influence of gravity) the friction is too low.

We know that a certain level of friction is necessary. (As slippery as an ice rink is, one could not skate if the ice were totally frictionless -- per Isaac Newton and that bunch.)

I'm also sure that you don't want to mess up your new paint job, but it might be possible to apply something to the rails that would make them a tad less slippery and see if it helped -- something that could be wiped off, or maybe some masking tape..

As Sherlock said, (more or less) "when you have exhausted all other possibilities, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the answer."

The fact that other barrels work a "little better" is suggestive that you are getting there.

People have told me that I don't drink nearly enough. I think I will take it up.

Edit, later on: Jim just posted that he has gotten it to work. VERY glad to hear it.

wolverine49

[trigtrax]

The barrel loader operates on the vibration of the ramp induced by the coil. The oxide rectifier is a diode and applies half wave ie 30 Hz to the coil. Adjustments are made by applying pressure to the ramp to bring it closer to the coil (or farther away). The distance from the coil controls the amplitude of vibration and it's the reason your barrels are jumping out.

[lionelsoni]

Half-wave 60 hertz is not 30 hertz. A coil carrying a 60-hertz current produces a maximum magnetic flux 120 times per second. Half-wave rectification reduces the frequency of the flux pulses to 60 hertz.

[Anonymous]

I would like to thank everyone who replied, especially wolverine49 who has been helping me all afternoon. I did get the loader to work better by moving the coil back and forth to adjust the air gap.



Jim

[martinden]

The barrels should not be shiny, glossy or slick. Original barrels (I got my 362 the first year they were made -- 1952 -- and over the next few years got additional barrels with several gondolas.) None of them was glossy -- they were stained brown, with a rough wood-grain finish. If you're trying to use modern barrels with that glossy finish, I'm surprised they'll go up at all!

Adjust the gap as decribed by Wolverine above, use a variable-voltage hook-up and experiment with voltage, use dull, rough barrels and you're almost certain to have it work -- there's not much else to go wrong. (With the proviso that the rectifier disc is actually good, as Jim believes it is.)

[lionelsoni]

Jim, I know you said at the start that the rectifier is good. How did you test it?

[Anonymous]

Bob,

The first thing I did to get to the rectifier was remove the complete mechanism from the plastic base. Once I removed it, I connected a wire from the transformer to the terminal clip that has the coil lead soldered to it. Then I touched the other wire to the the clip that is against the oxide surface of the rectifier. I took note of the sound and the vibration. Then, I touched the wire to the coil bracket, which in theory eliminated the rectifier from the circuit. I noticed that the sound was much softer now and the vibration was not as hard as it was before when I touched the wire to the clip that is against the rectifier. This is how I determined that the rectifier is good.


Jim