Nuther Dumb Switch Question

[Fred Bear]

I purchased 4 Lionel 022 switches for a criss cross. They are wired and work just fine, except in order to give the switches enough juice to throw them cleanly, it runs the locomotive off the track. Anyway of seperating the two functions? I have used the little side plug ins, and the track power is seperate from the plug in power, but the plug in power is just too much for the train. Can I get into the switches and knock out the track power provided by the plug ins and convert the switch track to track power? Thanks to all the respond. Jake

[Anonymous]

The plug ins as you call them are the fixed voltage pins which should be wired from an accessory terminal at about 14 -16 volts. You can use another transformer as long as its in phase with the other. Use a surge protector strip. This supplies enough power to throw the switches but shouldn't affect the track power. That comes from the track wires to the track power on the transformer. Switch power and track power should be different for the fixed voltage pins.

[Fred Bear]

If I hook up a ground to the track part of the switch, add power to the fixed voltage pins I'm getting voltage to the middle rails of the switches. This is without the switches hooked to the rest of the track, just sitting by themselves individually. Is this normal? I'd like to have power to operate the switches, and seperate power going to the middle rails of the switches to run the train, is this possible? Thanks, Jake

[msacco]

Fred Bear,
Let me try to explain this. If it's not clear maybe someone else will chime in.
When you use the plug (fixed voltage) you are cutting off track power being used to throw the switch. THat's all it does. Track power through the center rail of the switch will come from whatever is powering powering the track.
You don't need to add a ground wire from the switch. You only need one wire going from the plug to the power source.
Just make sure both tranformers are properly phased together and have a common ground.

Mike Sacco

[Fred Bear]

Mike, I'm getting track power from the fixed voltage plugs. I have power on the center rails of the switches when the switches are not hooked up to anything but the fixed voltage plug and a ground source. In other words, the switches are not in the layout anywhere, just simply sitting by themselves. Is that normal? Jake

[Anonymous]

Jake,

What you are seeing is NOT normal.

The insertion of the plastic fixed-voltage plug is supposed to do two things. First, it breaks contact between the center rail and the switch solenoids. Second, it makes contact internal to the plug, thereby creating the new path for power to the switch solenoid completely separate from the center rail.

Pull the cover off the switch and see if you can figure out how the voltage from the fixed-voltage plug is getting to the center rail.

What transformer are you using?

wolverine49

[Fred Bear]

Using a ZW. I do NOT have this problem with my 072 switches at all. I'll tear one down tomorrow and see what's going on. Thanks & I'll report back. Jake

[Anonymous]

Jake,

Take each switch one at a time. Connect the center rail to absolutely nothing: not to a transformer post, not to another piece of track -- not to anything!

Ground an outside rail to a transformer output. On a ZW any "U" post will do.

Run a wire from Post "A" to the screwhead on the fixed voltage plug, plug it in, and pu***he throttle up to 16 volts or so.

See whether the switch operates. If so, check the voltage between the center rail and one of the outside rails. It should be zero.

If there is power to the center rail, open up the switch and check that no one has "jumped" the electrical post that the inside of the fixed-voltage plug makes contact with to the center rail.

In normal operation, there is a springy contact between the this post and the center rail. I have seen this springy-thingy get weak, and not make good contact. Someone may have made a "repair" that permanently jumped the post to the center rail, thus defeating the contact-breaking action of the plastic plug. That would cause just what you are seeing.

wolverine49

[msacco]

Jake,
I've never tested them this way before, but i quickly took out some test leads and had an extra 022 hanging around and hooked it up. I get no voltage reading on any of the center rails. I believe this is how it's supposed to be.
I'm not savvy enough electrically to say what's going on here but make sure that the plug is all the way in and making good contact.

Mike Sacco

[lionelsoni]

Jake, the phase of the accessory voltage used for the switches doesn't matter. In fact, you can use DC if you want.

[Anonymous]

Bob (lionelsoni)

You make an interesting point about the possible use of DC. What do you see as the possible advantages of going that route?

Evidently Jake found the problem, which involved some sort of jumper connection that he had made in an attempt to solve another problem.

For reasons that are not totally clear, he has graciously posted his results in a new thread, rather than "close out" this one.

wolverine49

[lionelsoni]

Wolverine, I use DC myself for throwing switches, for a couple of reasons:

I use a capacitor at the switch to provide the actual switch-motor voltage, trickle-charged through a resistor. This eliminates the dreaded O27-switch buzz.

Using DC also allows me to interconnect switches with diodes, so that throwing one switch also throws the others that lead to it. A simple example is my main-yard throat, which needs controls only for the final four switches, the others upstream throwing automatically to line up the route.

[Anonymous]

Bob (lionelsoni),

Very clever. It must make for a unique visual experience when a series of your switches all flip at once.

My turnouts (all 022) don't seem to buzz (thank goodness) even though powered by AC. Is that because, once flipped, the innards (to use the technical term) disconnect the solenoids from the ongoing circuit, so that they are only energized when they are actually called upon to move?

By the way, I personally think the constant-voltage plugs are the greatest thing since sliced cheese. Along with the anti-derailment feature they have prevented countless derailments, which is helpful because I employ fast-blow fuses between the transformer and track, and hate to have to replace them every time a slow-operating turnout manages to derail something. My young granddaughter appreciates it too, as derailments tend to unsettle her.

wolverine49

[lionelsoni]

Yes, the O31 switches are different, in just the way you describe. Disconnecting the coils the way they do is also the way Lionel was able to put indicator lights in the controller. Each of the control wires is connected to one of the lights. The coil that is connected, that is, the one that will be used next, supplies current to one of the lights, but not nearly enough to throw the switch.

I believe that the reason it is so difficult to power O27 switches from a separate source is that Lionel was counting on the track power's being off if a train stopped on the switch, to keep from burning up the windings. Of course, the weak point in this concept is that a train could be stopped on a switch in neutral, with the voltage turned up. By the way, the O27 controllers that had lights had a simple mechanical shutter that lit one colored lens or the other, according to which way the handle had been pushed last. This unfortunately told the operator nothing about the actual position of the switch, only how it might be lined if the non-derailing feature had not changed it.

[Fred Bear]

The problem I suffered with the switches was my fault. I did not have two fix voltage plugs for two of the switches, so I soldered a wire on to the post inside the switch, not realizing that the little spring thingy that you push out of the way with the voltage plug also connects the track voltage! When you plug in the voltage plug, you push it out of the way without really knowing it, and therefore the switch is not dead of voltage until the track voltage is added. Does that make sense? This even fed backwards into my other accessories, and I used C post on the ZW for all accessories, including switches. What a mess! until I figured this out. Now this post is closed out officially. Thanks to all that helped out, you people one here are absolutely wonderful. Jake