Lionel 224 motor won't start running..

[lionelsoni]

E-units are quite repairable, but very tricky to reassemble. The drum probably needs no more than cleaning with a pencil eraser. The fingers may need to be rebent to restore their contact force against the drum. Their tips will eventually wear through. At that point you can replace them, although I can't resist trying to reshape what is left of the ends to get another 50 years out of them.

[kpolak]

AH SUCCESS!
Ok The motor turns in both directions by switching the wires, and it runs smoothly at all voltages.

So the drum and contacts in the e-unit are the problem. The wires are showing signs of age. Are these serviceable or should I just look for another e-unit?
Suggestions on a dealer for this would be appreciated; offline if rules of the forum require.

Thank you so much everyone! This engine is pretty basic in the collector world, but I have memories shopping for it through flea markets with my father.

Thank you again,
Kurt

[lionelsoni]

I agree that the e-unit is the most likely culprit.

But continuity among the commutator segments does not mean that there is not an open armature coil. The coils are wired in a ring, with two coils connected to each segment. To discover an open coil, you need to do something like compare resistance measurements among all three possible pairs of segments.

[Anonymous]

Kurt,

Since we know the armature is fine, the e-uit is likely the problem. If the motor passes this test, the e-unit is at fault. Disconnect the wire leading from the pickup to the e-unit, the wire going from the e-unit to the field coil, and finally disconnect the two wires from the brush plate. Once the e-unit is disconnected, you can test the motor. Connect one wire from the transformer to the frame of the locomotive, and connect the other wire to either one of the brush holders. Connect the one wire from the field coil to the remaining brush holder. The other end of the field coil is already grounded to the locomotive frame. When you apply power, the motor should run. You can make it run in the other direction by switching the wires connected to the brush holders. For example, if the motor ran in one direction with the one wire from the transformer connected to the right brush holder and the field connected to the left, you can make it run in the other direction by moving the wire from the transformer to the left brush holder and the field to the right. If the motor runs fine in both directions, the drum and contacts in the e-unit are the source of the problem and will need to be replaced.

Kurt, do not worry that you did not have continuity between the pickup and either of the brushes, the drum may have been in a neutral position.

Jim

[kpolak]

I've been running around the engine with a continuity tester.
I get signal between the pick-up (center track) and the e-unit. I get continuity between the brushes...? Is this right? I did not get continuity between the commutator segments when the brushes were removed.

I do not get continuity between the e-unit power input (from the pick-up) and the brushes.
Should I get a signal here?

Thanks,
Kurt

[kpolak]

Using a voltmeter I tested continuity between the commutator segments, and they all have continuity.
The coil is not shorted to the shaft.

Thanks,
Kurt

[Anonymous]

Kurt,

The more I think about the problem you have, I am starting to think that one of the coils on the armature may be open. What makes me think this is that you said the engine sometimes needs a pu***o get going. You can check the armature by removing the brush plate, and use a continuity tester or two wires from your transformer to check the coils. If you use your transformer, trun it up to only about 8-10 volts. Hold one wire to one commutator segment, and touch the other wire to the remainig two segments in turn. Repeat this test until you have checked all three segments in this manner. There should be a spark every time you test a segment. No spark indicates that the coil is open. You should also test the armature for shorted coils. To do this, hold one wire to the armature shaft, and touch the other wire to each of the three segments. There should not be a spark produced any any time during this test. If you get a spark, the coil is shorted to the shaft. If you find that a coil is open or shorted, the armature must be rewound or replaced.


Jim

[phillyreading]

A light takes very little power compared to a motor so try another motorized unit. Sounds good about the cleaning part. Try another locomotive with that transformer,if it has similar problems take the cover off with a philips screwdriver(mine has philips screws), clean the top part right inside with a rag that has some alcohol on it, wait a few minutes, re-assemble and try again, should get some dirt off it and be extremely black & gritty looking as that is normal wear for a post-war ZW.
Lee Fritz

[kpolak]

So far I haven't used any sprays on the motor or any part of the engine. Everything I have done has been with minimal cleaner or lubricant on a narrowed q-tip.

I cleaned the e-unit roller wheel and the shaft on the selenoid. I can hear the e-unit clicking up and down when I increase voltage to the track. But the motor is still sporatic. This didn't seem to have an effect on turning the motor.

Could my transformer be causing something like this? I have an equally old ZW, but I haven't cleaned this yet. I am assuming that if the engine light lights the motor should run. Is this correct?

Thank you again,
Kurt

[phillyreading]

Have you cleaned the little roller wheel inside the e-unit? A very small pencil eraser will work. To clean any left-over spray out of the armature area take an old rag and insert it carefully to absorb the left over spray. Hope that you learned something about motor repair, NEVER USE spray lubes on small motors! The best way to lubricate is still using a small tube to apply oil to most points on the older Lionel trains, make sure to clean the wheels too! For best all around operation clean the wheels on every passenger & frieght car you have, keeps down problems like the cars won't work with a highway crossing signal & a 154 contact.
For wheel cleaning I use a small flat tip screwdriver and scrape the build-up off the wheels first then use an eraser to clean the remaining dirt, used to think that I had to replace a lot of wheel sets or trucks but cleaning the wheels did wonders. Don't forget to clean the center roller wheel, may need a pair of needle nose pliers to hold the wheel while cleaning with an eraser.
Just to mention I have a 224E & a 249E steam locomotives that run fine, of course I have to maintain them.
Lee Fritz

[kpolak]

Sorry,
This 224 is a 2-6-2 Prarie Loco (O27) with fixed bell, from about 1946.
Kurt

[kpolak]

I cleaned the brushes and the plate surface. It didn't seem to help right away. Pushing the engine seemed to help the motor remember that it's supposed to go...I did get it to go forward, but the e-unit doesn't seem to be responding. I let it run for about a half hour, and it stopped again. I pushed it in reverse, and now it will run in reverse only, and the e-unit doesn't respond.
Are there any operable parts in the e-unit? I have read that the unit 'switches'? Could this be the root of the problem?

Thanks for the help,
Kurt

[phillyreading]

Kurt,

You went too far in the cleaning of the motor & brushes, as jimtrumpie mentioned just use denatured alcohol a product similar to rubbing alcohol, clean only the plate surface
of the armature(cleaning whole armature may kill it!) and clean the brushes with denatured alcohol, let it all dry then make sure the brush surface is smooth across the mating surface, sandpaper about 220 grit should work fine. The brushes are similar to lead in a pencil but harder. Only lubricate gears and contact points on any shaft.
What 224 do you have? There are Alco AB unit diesels or the steam loco with 2-6-2 wheel arrangement, listed as post war.

Lee Fritz

[Anonymous]

Kurt,

It sounds to me like what happened is that the brushes are sticking in their holders. This will cause the motor to run until one brush wears just enough to lose contact with the commutator. Normally the brushes maintain contact, but the lubrication, combined with the heat that builds up within each brush holder, causes them to stick, preventing the brushes from moving freely. Take the motor apart and clean the brushes and brush holders with denatured alcohol. You may also want to replace the brushes and springs while you have it apart, this may not be necesary, but it may improve performance. This time, do not apply any type of lubricant to the brushes. By the way, I would advise against stretching or bending brush springs. If you think the are questionable, replace them. Let us know what happens.


Jim

[kpolak]

I have a Lionel 224 locomotive, that has been sitting for a few (ok-8 years), and I am getting back into the game.

I opened it up, cleaned and oiled everything...Cleaned the brushes, with deoxIT, and lubricated them with proGold. (special cleaners made for electronics)

The train gets power, the light comes on and the whistle works, but the train won't run. I had this same problem when I first put the train on the tracks, but it began to run after a bit. I ran it for about an hour, checked to verify that the e-unit was working, (it worked in all 3-positions) stopped it, to add a car, and it won't run again.

The wheels turn, the armature turns, everything is freed up, but the motor just won't start.

Any ideas are appreciated.
Thank you,
Kurt