Demographics of Classic Toy Trains.

[c50truck]

Hello,
I’ve been a member of this forum for only a short while. I enjoy the forum, reading the questions and answers, and learning from the information. I truly enjoy the Sunday photos, (even though I only have dial-up, I can start to load the page, go to church, and when we get home, it might be done). But I have noticed a demographic disparity. It seems most of the action, shows, and events, swap meets, etc; happen on the East Coast or Midwest.
Other than Pigseye, IE Tim, a short jaunt up highway 95 from Greenacres, I don’t see many folks from the west coast or the Pacific Northwest. And Yes, I’ve been up to Cocolalla, ID several times; Heaven in the Mountains is a great description.

Looking for items for sale on Ebay, I notice the same disparity. It seems most items come from the East coast or the Midwest as well. I would love CTT to wade in on this. They are certain to know where their magazines sale.

Anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this. Do you know of activity or friends on the West Coast? Is this a predominately East Coast, Midwest hobby?

Rod.

[pbjwilson]

Well, Othe r than the St. Louis Cardinals, it wasnt until the 1960's that there was a major league baseball team west of the Mississippi. Most of the population of the U.S. was east of the Mississippi.So about 99% of your postwar trains were originally purchased in cities and towns east of the great river.
In fact I think that the states west of the Mississip should succeed and start there own country. Heck you might as well take everything south of the Mason Dixon line as well. Everyone knows that us Yanks are the ones really running the country anyway. And since we're running everything, we have all the trains.

[prewardude]

I have a feeling this is going to be a VERY interesting debate. [:D]

[Anonymous]

I have a lot of friends in the hobby (various scales) who live in the west--California and Colorado, primarily. Garden railroading is VERY popular in both of those states, as well as in places like Arizona, Texas, Washington state, and New Mexico, among others.

In general, the hobby enjoys its greatest following in areas with (1) larger populations and (2) areas where railroading was and still is a highly visible mode of transportation. Naturally, the East and Midwest has an advantage in that regard, followed by the West Coast.

I've attended NMRA National Conventions and Garden Railway conventions in California, Oregon, Texas, and Canada, and can surely attest that there's a whole lot of great model railroading going on in those areas, as well as in the East and Midwest.

As I recall, Pennsylvania leads the pack in terms of overall numbers of model railroaders and even model railroad stores, but that kind of makes good sense given Pennsylvania's location and long-standing relationship to railroading.

[HopperSJ]

QUOTE: In fact I think that the states west of the Mississip should succeed and start there own country. Heck you might as well take everything south of the Mason Dixon line as well.

pbj - I like it!! A bit inflamatory, but I like it! [:D]

[dwiemer]

Railroads have gone where they were needed. As industry tends to be near water ways and other resources, the rails serve businesses along these routes. Then, other business grows as it has access to transportation (rails/highways, etc). Being that the yankees were willing to trade open spaces and beauty for grey skylines, they got most of the railroads. The rails are beautiful, but they come at a high cost with regard to what comes with them. We have some trackage around, but mainly in hubs like Atlanta and Savannah. The rest we leave for natural beauty.
OK, enough digs at the yankees, As mentioned, most of the rails are in the North East corridor, and most of the industry is there too. In fact, most of the trains of old were limited to the NE and very few model RR companies bothered to put resources out west. Having travelled extensively, you do see some locations that for some reason have a large model railroad population and trainstore population to match. One such place is San Diego, they have lots of places to buy trains and have a museum etc. I guess this may be due to the large military presence and having people who grew up with trains around. I would be interested in other opinions though.
Dennis

[c50truck]

Allan. Garden railroads are popular here as well as HO scale. But finding individuals who collect O gauge is not as easy. I guess I was thinking out loud when I started this post, that there clearly seems to be regional differences in the model train hobby.

Pbj – If you want us to succeed, I’ll gladly take the folks south of the Mason Dixon line.
There’s a reason I call my wife my southern belle.

Dennis, Maybe I need to travel more!

[dbaker48]

Hold on here ..... We have plenty of demographics west of the Mississippi, I'll bet their are more demographics in LA county than the rest of the country. LOL Also, if all the train development activity was left to the North East corridor, all we would probably see is rectifiers and other electrics running in circles. All the "monster" engines were developed for the vastness of the west, and mountainous terrains, not to mention the extensive distances. Besides all that, when you crowd a large quantity of any creature be it rodents, insects etc, in a small area their seems to be lots of em, however when they are sparsley spread out, they are very easy to count.

Seriously, there is a lot going on, I think San Diego has one of the best toy train museums if not the best one in the country. (I will be posting some pics from my trip there this past Thursday.) York undoubtdly is the biggest and best train show, but this year the TTOS national convention is being held in Costa Mesa, CA in August. And, we have Cal-Stewart in Pasadena in November. In So. Cal their is a train meet (local clubs) going on within 60 mile radius just about every weekend.

[FJ and G]

Demographics of the "average" CTT reader:

1. male

2. 55

3. Favorite RR: PRR

4. Runs 027 conventional on plywood

5. Other hobbies: fishing, baseball, vintage cars

6. Married

7. Where from: Pennsylvania or Ohio (top 2)

8. Trains as kid: Lionel, HO

9. weight: 235 (69" tall)

10. Favorite food: meat & potatoes

11. Favorite drink: Bud or Coors lite

12. Income: 60K

[brianel027]

I recall reading some years ago that the strongest numbers of train magazine subscriptions were Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey. I reemmber at one time reading over the printed Lionel Dealer Directory sheet and noticed similar numbers reflecting service stations and retailers. I also remember that Texas and California showed strong numbers.

So I went to the Lionel web site and did some random counts of dealers listed on their website in random states I picked, which also includes service stations. Forgive me: I could be off by one, as I just scrolled down and quickly counted...

Alabama - 14
Arizona -16
California - 130
New York - 106
Pennsylvania - 159
Illinois - 77
Texas - 55

Granted all these numbers may not reflect dealers who carry full lines of Lionel... they may be full line hobby shops though who also carry some Lionel. But these are the ones listed on the Lionel website. Granted also, mail order muddies the waters alittle, but I would suspect that dealers tend to be where the buyers are. Which might also give you an idea where the magazine readers actually are. I suspect that even with the hard hits the northeast US has taken in good paying manufacturing jobs, there are still a lot of train guys in these traditional areas.

Dave, I know I've seen the stats you gave... where were they from? In my own unscientific surveys and from asking questions at train shows, I have always found the largest group of modelers and operaters are NON-command, traditionally sized 027 track users. I've always thought it was so odd that the train companies have made such a valiant and even foolish effort to court the smallest number of modelers.

In their last years K-Line spent more money on tooling and new product development than they ever had, mostly all on higher end product. While the products earned high praise and great reviews from the train magazines, it seems the buyers waited until they were blowouts before they bought the products. It doesn't take an economic geniuis to know that large capital investements and blowout pricing spells disaster. Instead of paying attention to K-Line's real audience, they ignored them and as a consequnce went out of business.

There's some lessons to be learned here, and yet the train companies continue to strangle eachother in court while trying still trying to one up eachother with products that appeal to the smallest segment of buyers.

I'll be willing to bet that if the traditional 027 buyer took a one year vacation from buying any new train products for one year, that would be a devastating hit to the hobby, despite all the long request lists for this one and that other specific locomotive (or rolling stock type) which only one railroad owned.

While Clyde Coil and the gang continue to debate about new operating advancements and chuff rates, I think the train makers would be well advised on making quality, well made "toy" REPLICAS at affordable prices!!! I don't hear too many traditional 027 guys quibbliing about headlight or marker light placement or accurate chuff rates. I find the MPC-era mechanical "sound of steam" impresses folks just as well as any digital system else if nothing more than for its' utter "no worry over blown circuit board" simplicity.

[hugoroundhouse]

FYI -

Those of us in Colorado have already "succeeded" [:D]

I assume you mean we should also "secede" - or withdraw from the union. [:(!]

I thought that argument was settled in 1865. [:p]

Maybe a bit more mature dialog might be in order. [:D]

Jim E.

[Anonymous]

I don't see any reason to secede.... here in Texas, we have the best of both worlds. We're both Texans and Americans. It's no problem for us to ignore political correctness and any other weird Yankee stuff. We do what we want.... it's a free country, right?

(I don't mean anything against Yankees.... truth is, we love y'all!)

[dougdagrump]

Now I have been called some pretty rough names but ......Oh never mind I thought you said Democrats..[:o)]
In SoCal there is interest in "O" gauge rr but I don't believe it is as strong as HO, N or G. On the west coast the homes don't come with a basement where the typical "O" layouts are built.

[pbjwilson]

Hey giz,
It was late at night and had a couple glasses of wine in me and was rambling on a bit. Thought I would stir things up with some sarcasm. And I cant even spell, but then again I was under the influence of some spirits. Thought for sure the Chief would have bit on this topic.

[corton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Santafekent

I don't see any reason to secede.... here in Texas, we have the best of both worlds. We're both Texans and Americans. It's no problem for us to ignore political correctness and any other weird Yankee stuff. We do what we want.... it's a free country, right?

(I don't mean anything against Yankees.... truth is, we love y'all!)

Santafekent, I dunno where *you* are, but in the DFW area, it's nothing BUT Yankees!!!

[Warburton]

brianel027 has it right. The makers are concentrating on the expensive ":scale" stuff. Most of the other is plastic-truck cheapos (and there aren't many choices either). I guess the guys with the big bucks rule as usual!

[donl409]

I have found that when I'm back east I can find all kinds of model trains stuff (lionel and marx,AF,etc) in most stores(antigues, 2nd hand, swap meets,junk stores,etc). But out here (San Diego) its hard (and VERY expensive) to find anything, except the train shows. I believe that is because , like me, most everyone moved out here (came out in '61 as a kid) and had to leave all toys behind. Same as the service men from WW2, they shipped through here, liked it and came back leaving their stuff behind. So all that good stuff is still back east and mid west. Thank goodness for E-bay!

[Anonymous]

This is turning into an interesting discussion Rod. One of the reasons we don't have many O Gaugers around here is , some of my neighbors dont have electricity. Yes thats right, they use a generator when needed.
Also a general lack of information i.e. We just found out last week that smoking is bad for you.
Guess I'm lucky because I brought most of my trains from Texass, where the men are men and the sheep......Well you know what I mean.
Next time you're up 95 this way, at Cocolalla Lake turn right and come up to the top of Butler Mountain and visit a spell.............Yall come.....Tim

[Buckeye Riveter]

I can't believe you guys haven't figured out why there are more trains in Ohio and Pennsylvania. When Lionel used to ship their truckloads of model trains west, the mob hi-jacked the trucks and gave the trains to all of us kids. [:D]

We still got em, and we ain't given em up.

[wrmcclellan]

Back in the heyday of Lionel toy trains, most of the population was concentrated on the east coast and the upper mid-west. Thus the majority of sales were to those areas.

No coincidence that air conditioning was not in general use except in commercial structures.

Us native Texans wi***he population was still generally centered on the east coast and upper mid-west.

[spankybird]

Simply

OTTS Rules

Remember the Ohio Roll Call thread [?]

[CB_Fan]

Watch www.lots-trains.org for updates on the July 2007 LOTS convention that will be in Portland, OR. We hope a lot of O-gauge train folks will gather for that one!

[1688torpedo]

Railroading has its roots in the State of Pennsylvania, In the Town of Honesdale is where the first steam engine ever ran & it was called the Stourbridge Lion as it was made over in Stourbridge,England & was shipped to New York City (it was disassembled) and put together by the men from Stourbridge,England & it had a Lion's Face painted on the Front Boiler. A replica of this engine was built by the Delaware & Hudson Railroad in 1932 for their 100th anniversary & now resides in the Wayne County historical society in Honesdale,Pa. This replica is a actual working steam engine that is preserved for future generations to come. The original Lion brought over from England was too heavy for the Iron Rails it rode upon & was abandoned in the woods near Honesdale.Years Later the boiler from the Lion was used in a Machine Shop in Carbondale,Pa & bits & pieces of it were recovered & sent to the Smithsonian in Washington D.C. for public display. No one knows what happend to the boiler after the Machine Shop Discarded it.(Most likely sold it for junk) The reason for Pennsylvania's role as the Birthplace of the American Railroad is on account of the Anthracite Coal found there & this also helped start the Iron & Coal industry as the Coal was used to make Pig Iron which is used to make Steel & this started the Industrial Revolution of the 1800s as well. The Iron & Steel Industry originated in Scranton,Pa which is 30 miles Southwest of Honesdale & where Iron Ore deposits were originally found & depleted which resulted in the loss of Scranton's Iron & Steel industry. The Foundries were dismantled in Scranton & sent to the south side of Buffalo,NY due to the Great Lakes shipping and access to Iron Ore from Minnesota. This is why the Iron & Steel business was concentrated in Cities like Cleveland,Pittsburgh,Chicago,& Buffalo. And other industries soon followed as well. This is why the Railroads,Iron & Steel, & other heavy industies were concentrated here in the East/Northeast section of the Country. Take Care all.

[c50truck]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pigseyes




Next time you're up 95 this way, at Cocolalla Lake turn right and come up to the top of Butler Mountain and visit a spell.............Yall come.....Tim

Tim thanks for the invite. It would be a pleasure to see your trains in person. I guess it would be a good idea to leave the mini van at home and bring the truck if heading your way! And if you ever get down on the valley floor, stop in. You can't miss us. We're the alfalfa field surrounded by housing developments! The quietest neighbor we now have is the Spokane Gun Club.[:D]

Rod

[ChiefEagles]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 1688torpedo

Railroading has its roots in the State of Pennsylvania, In the Town of Honesdale is where the first steam engine ever ran & it was called the Stourbridge Lion as it was made over in Stourbridge,England & was shipped to New York City (it was disassembled) and put together by the men from Stourbridge,England & it had a Lion's Face painted on the Front Boiler. A replica of this engine was built by the Delaware & Hudson Railroad in 1932 for their 100th anniversary & now resides in the Wayne County historical society in Honesdale,Pa. This replica is a actual working steam engine that is preserved for future generations to come. The original Lion brought over from England was too heavy for the Iron Rails it rode upon & was abandoned in the woods near Honesdale.Years Later the boiler from the Lion was used in a Machine Shop in Carbondale,Pa & bits & pieces of it were recovered & sent to the Smithsonian in Washington D.C. for public display. No one knows what happend to the boiler after the Machine Shop Discarded it.(Most likely sold it for junk) The reason for Pennsylvania's role as the Birthplace of the American Railroad is on account of the Anthracite Coal found there & this also helped start the Iron & Coal industry as the Coal was used to make Pig Iron which is used to make Steel & this started the Industrial Revolution of the 1800s as well. The Iron & Steel Industry originated in Scranton,Pa which is 30 miles Southwest of Honesdale & where Iron Ore deposits were originally found & depleted which resulted in the loss of Scranton's Iron & Steel industry. The Foundries were dismantled in Scranton & sent to the south side of Buffalo,NY due to the Great Lakes shipping and access to Iron Ore from Minnesota. This is why the Iron & Steel business was concentrated in Cities like Cleveland,Pittsburgh,Chicago,& Buffalo. And other industries soon followed as well. This is why the Railroads,Iron & Steel, & other heavy industies were concentrated here in the East/Northeast section of the Country. Take Care all.

I thought it was Charleston SC. HUMMMM

Yankees are always trying to steal the show. Big chested braggers and they get worse with a little spirts in their fat bellies. They don't recognize anyone else because their brains are frozen from the winters and don't get to thaw out at all. Us nice and friendly Southerners try to save them with sweet ice tea and a big bowl of hot grits. They reject this help and go on stumbling through life. It is sad but then they suddely realize their mistakes and move SOUTH to retire. [;)]

Welcome to all left bankers but they are just getting to their computer when us in the east are going to bed. God bless.

[FJ and G]

I thought it was Treverthic in merry ole England!

[brianel027]

Very good Keith. Along with the coal and steel production in Pennsylvania, you had the one-time manufacturing power of the northeast, and in particular New York State. At one time, NY's manufacturing output equaled that of entire other countries, nevermind other states. Even the beloved Alco locomoties were made right here in NYS. It has nothing to do with one state being better than the other... it's just history. These manufacturing jobs were once good paying jobs that supported families and gave them some extra spending money too. With so many railroads in these states, the interest in model trains is only natural. Certainly in recent decades, NYS has little to brag about. Cities that were once major manufacturing centers are now shadows of their once former glory. The "Empire State" has rapidly become the Roman Empire State, as my gag location line says.

Take just the states of New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and the commonwealth of Pennsylvania and list the railroads that ran through these areas:
1) The Pennsylvania Railroad
2) New York Central
3) Wabash
4) Nickle Plate Road
5) Lehigh Valley
6) Lackawanna
7) Erie (later Erie Lackawanna)
8) PIttsburg and Lake Erie
9) Reading
10) Central of New Jersey
11) Boston and Maine
12) New Haven
13) Boston and Albany
14) Delaware and Hudson
15) Chesapeak and Ohio
16) Baltimore and Ohio
17) The Long Island Railroad
18) Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Line
19) The Rutland

And I'm probably forgetting some, nevermind the later mergers and consolodations. You'd be hardpressed to name four other states that had so many large and important historical railroads running though them. Given the one-time population density and the one-time big passenger/commuter service, it is no wonder that the northeast US was the big area for model trains and probably still is.

No offense y'all. God sees us all with equal value. And God Bless America means all of America the last I understood. It doesn't mean us New Yorkers or Pennsylvanians are better... just the way history worked: we did have more railroads.

[Anonymous]

Railroads played a big part in winning the Civil War (although some folks in my neck of the woods are still fighting it)--that's a fact that is not and cannot really be disputed. And guess which side had the better railroads, and far more of them! [;)]

[Dr. John]

I think one factor that explains the concentration of model railroaders in the northeast and midwest is this: basements.

Far less common in the south and west. It's harder for us to find space to build a layout unless you use: a spare bedroom, the garage or an auxiliary building.

Brianel -
On the list you have of Lionel service stations, I think it must be out of date. At present, there are only 4 in Alabama that are still operating. The others have all closed over the past few years, unfortunately. Two in the Montgomery area closed in the past two years.

[Dave Farquhar]

Since my wife and I go to Alabama every summer with my in-laws (I have cool in-laws), I thought that number seemed awfully high. When I've looked in phone books for a train store to visit, I generally haven't been able to find much. You had me excited for a minute.

When we've gone antiquing, I've only ever found one really overpriced Lionel Scout set. That's as opposed to the five really overpriced Scout sets I'll find if I go out looking in St. Louis. :)