Do they really make them like they use to?????

[Anonymous]

I have noticed on this forum of several situations arising with command control stuff on the high tech locos made these days. engines being stuck in nuetral or just running backwards. I still live in the past. I run post war lionel,& some of the simple things made by williams,which just keep running like a Timex watch. Anyone know what the life expectancy is of these computer chips that go into the making of these new products??/ How about the can motors that they make now??? Lets say you run your engine about ten hours a week,how long with that can motor last???? never had to worry about things like that. The williams engines all have can motors.. Thanks Easter.

[1688torpedo]

Hello Easter! This is why my Trains are conventional with Mechanical Reverse Units & Pullmore Motors. I can take them out of their boxes; Check to see that they have enough oil & grease for running and i'm all set. I have no need to buy Engines that have to be upgraded,programed or re-programed & I don't have to worry about Can Motors wearing out also as Pullmore's are easy to work on & last a lifetime. Old Lionel,Flyer, & Ives Trains can run a long,long time with proper maintenance & upkeep. Who knows how long the new ones will run? The New Trains with all of their detail & electronics do not impress me as much as a 50-80 year old Train that still runs & can do what it is supposed to do. Take Care.

[Odd-d]

Are you bragging or complaining? How long do you think a Lionel postwar engine would last being run 10 hours per week? Also since I think Lionel postwar trains are ugly and out of scale I doubt if I could make myself watch that stuff ten hours per week. I have new (recently made) TMCC and conventional engines that run for hours at a stretch during shows and they show no signs of wear. I have run two Lionel engines literally to death and they didn't run as long as my modern engines. So don't be afraid to buy modern command control engines....you might even start having some fun with your trains for a change. Odd-d

[Anonymous]

Now you've done it, you started a flame war.

[Anonymous]

NOPE .no offence taken here. Just asked a question.I ENJOY what I HAVE,nothing boring about it. If I do invest big bucks in something I JUST WANTED TO GET AN IDEA OF HOW LONG i HAVE BEFORE I HAVE TO REPAIR IT. Thank you. Easter

[Anonymous]

My evaluation is that in some cases they make things far better than they used to (better materials overall, finer production methods, better painting, better graphics, better details, etc.) and in some instances there's still a way to go, particularly in regard to longevity of electronic and some other components. There are always going to be some tradeoffs, I suppose, and it's just a matter of how anxious one is to get the "latest and greatest" and how many features one demands in the toy trains he or she buys.

Overall, I have no real complaints because I pick and choose rather carefully in terms of the items I buy, and am patient enough to wait for the reviews to come in before I shell out any money.

[Dave Farquhar]

Under ideal conditions, computer chips, capacitors, etc., can last 7-10 years running nonstop. The can motor would wear out before the electronics would.

Walk into the computer room of a large corporation, and your chances of seeing some very old computer systems that have been running continuously for a decade are pretty high. I can count four computers matching that description within 20 feet of me right now, as I write.

Unfortunately, O gauge track doesn't match any definition of ideal conditions. The voltage will fluctuate due to any number of factors--dirty wheels and track among them. Heat also causes electronics to break down more quickly. Modern locomotive bodies are designed primarily for realism, not heat dissipation. So yes, you can end up having to trade long-term reliability for scale fidelity.

Electronics aren't inherently bad--I own some computers that are 20 years old, and they still work just fine, and my main computer at home is five years old, works fine, and I have every intention of keeping it as my main computer for another 2-3 years at least. But a train does present some difficult challenges for an electrical engineer.

Traditional trains with a universal motor and electromechanical e-unit have their own challenges. They're different. And they wear out. The advantage to them is that the parts inside are user-serviceable, and the trains were made in huge quantities for so many years that getting parts isn't likely to ever be a problem--there are still lots of original parts available, and a cottage industry of people making repro parts. Any mechanical engineer with the inclination to make these parts can do it.

I don't think quality and reliability is a valid excuse for picking traditional versus modern trains, or vice-versa. It's more of a question of whether it's counting rivets that makes you happy, or the smell of oil and ozone. And some people happen to like both.

[Anonymous]

Wonderful input guys. Thank you. Easter

[jefelectric]

First let me say, I like both. I have a pair of Lionel trainmasters with Pullmore motors that I intend to convert to TMCC, but without sound so I can hear the pullmores and smell the ozone. And I think Dave is right, they electronics under normal conditions will outlast the can motors. At my former office they just took the server out of service that has run continuously for 12 years, except for maintenance shutdowns, never replaced any of the hardware.

Most of the electronic problems arise very soon after the item is put into use. The train manufacturers do not have the facilities nor could they afford the cost to do extensive testing that would bring out the weak circuit boards or components. The remainder as Dave mentioned are mostly temperature and surge related. These are just part of the way we use them, not a fault of the electronics in particular. If space permitted the manufacturers could build more robust electronics, but then the costs would go up. As the market dictates prices, they have to make a reasonable compromise between quality and price.

All this is just my opinion.

[thor]

Usually if an electronic circuit is going to fail because of a sub-standard component it will do so in the first 24-48 hours.

That having been said, model railroads pose a unique set of problems inherent to their operation that can easily damage sensitive components. High heat, eletrical surges and spikes caused by momentary passing contacts such as running through switches and so on. So the more circuits you add, the more the chance of failure.

I dont like can motors much either but they are usually reliable, I happen to prefer things that facilitate owner maintenance but we're in the minority and the economics of mass production make it cheaper to turn out sealed, non maintainable units which also tend to last longer because they're sealed.

I'm a 'good old days' rose colored specs optimist who prefers motorcycles as his year round transport because I can maintain them myself and like doing so but the truth of the matter is that if I was still stuck with Triumph, BSA, Royal Enfield or Norton I might have changed my mind by now. I'm living in the best of both worlds by riding a motorcycle with a bullet proof modern engine that still has enough bits I can fiddle with to keep me happy without holding my nose to the grindstone the way my Enfield did.

Ditto trains. I for one wouldnt want to go back to the crudity of the 50's locos in terms of appearances, I like the modern stuff though I havent yet gone digital and may well not.
As a matter of fact I'm right now retrofitting a Pullmor chassis to my can motored die cast Atlantic but the Atlantic is going to be saved the brunt of the hard work I just bought an old plastic shelled loco to deal with.

My 3 yr old can cra***he can motored plastic shelled loco all she likes in the process of learning, I'm saving the diecast one to keep its paint intact and for when I am running the trains.

Overall though my opinion is that our hobby has never been so well served as it is today. The detailing, the finish, the choices are miles better than what went before. I'll still collect and restore old 'uns every chance I get for purely nostalgic reasons but if I had bottomless pockets I'd be buying up every new piece that struck my fancy, secure in the knowledge that if there ever was a Golden Age (for all sorts of transport) it is definitely today.

[dwiemer]

I love post war, pre war, whatever. I just like trains. That being said, each generation has it's problems/benefits. The new stuff has issues with circuit boards, batteries, and traction tires. the old ones have issues with needing regular maintinence, and a lack of realistic control.
While my Lionel Docksider looks great, I don't want to have to figure out the electronics. As for my postwar engines being ugly, good thing some opinions don't count. That is like calling someones child ugly, you just don't do it. If you don't like it, just say so and move on.
I can watch my trains for 10+ hours at a time, but rarely do because I have other priorities. Given the proper maintanence, Postwar will run and run, I think 60 years of service has proven it.
In some regards, the older ones are a proven thing. While the new ones may look better (to some), and have more bells and whistles, they will have the test of time to see how they do.
Dennis

[palallin]

In lots of years of operation and a few dozen locos, I've never managed to destroy a Universal motor, even a cheapie Marx that has seen mucho use/abuse, but I have trashed one LTI can motor after only an hour or so of light use and one MPC motor by adding a little weight to an underweight Alco.

[pbjwilson]

So last year my Maytag washing machine dated 1965 finally bit the dust. 40 years of use. It came with the house that I have lived in for the past 16 years. I have a family of 4. The previous owner who I bought the house from had 5 kids. This machine saw alot of use. I went to the appliance store and bought a new Maytag. I told my story of the 40 year old Maytag washer to the salesman. He looked at me and said "You wont get that out of this machine. 10 years tops, They dont make 'em like they used to."

[Frank53]

My trains sat in an attic in the northeast blazing heat and freezing cold for 35 straight years.

Took them out, lubed them and ran them and every one runs like a champ.

Someone take a circuit board laden modern train, store it in the attic in Ohio until 2041 and let us know how it runs. I have no doubt my Post War 224 or 726 will still be running trouble free.

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dave Farquhar

Electronics aren't inherently bad--I own some computers that are 20 years old, and they still work just fine, and my main computer at home is five years old, works fine, and I have every intention of keeping it as my main computer for another 2-3 years at least.

Okay, Dave, I gotta ask.

What exactly are you running on those 20-year-old computers? They don't make software for them anymore, and my 20-year old Commodore64 didn't even have a hard drive! It ran only one program at a time, and you had to load it at bootup. But it had a whopping 64mb of RAM, and like most computers in those days used 5-inch floppies and I was able to do a lot of word processing on it... In later service, my trusty Commodore64 (and 128) served me well as a wheel chock, along with my Beta VCR, crystal-based CB radio, leisure suit, bubble-toed shoes and Kodak 110 cartridge film camera. LOL!

[msacco]

No they do not. I like and run some new stuff but there's no doubt this stuff is "just run it and enjoy now while it works" as far as user thinking goes.
If you're really thinking longevity the above posters are right about postwar stuff. These parts will always be made and Lionel was so successful in carrying over some of same parts and designs from loco to loco, that making repro parts is so doable.
I had my F3 apart a few weeks ago with the trucks dropped and all. I"m stil amazed at how I can get at just about everything. Also how well everything is machined and it all fits together with screws and such. This engine of course represents the top end of postwar lionel, but it so serviceable and maybe that's why it was so successful.
I also prefer the look of postwar to the more detailed scale stuff. Heck to me the simplied look of the locos give the trains more character.

Mike S.

[csxt30]

Getting back to the original title of the post. I have to say, NOPE !
Plus I have to agree with Pauls Maytag Man, when he says, this one won't last 40 years ! Just makes me laugh how quick a war can start over postwar & modern stuff. I went & looked up the definition of HOBBY ! I thought it used to mean, "something you did when you didn't have anything else to do". I think it still means that, but one Dictionary says it is " an activity or interest persued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure" . With that being said, I say, WHO CARES if one guy has postwar or modern ! I like them all, but I just like the sounds a lot more ! Some people sound mad if you like the modern stuff, & vise versa . You know when I was in R/C, most every expensive plane or heli crashes sometimes & most of the guys just plan on a way to fix it or save for another, & they can get into the thousands real easy. They call it fun ! Why would any one want to cut down another persons hobby ?
One thing I will mention is that the trains we had when we were kids, usually only ran in the winter time, & today we are running them year round............

[brianel027]

Well folks, we've become a Burger King society and this has become a Burger King hobby too.... everyone wants to have it "their way."

Do they really make them like they use to? Absolutely not. And depending on your viewpoint, this is either a good or a bad thing. Read the "I wi***hey'd make this..." lists on the other forum. Some of today's modelers have gotten pretty demanding and pretty specific in what they want from these so-called toy trains. When I read those lists, I can truly imagine folks at the train companies just pulling out their hair wondering what it is they can actually do to make the train consumer happy? Models of unusual trains owned only by one railroad in precise exact prototypical detail and at a mass market price point.

And the train makers have been more than willing to run along with this wishful thinking by one upping eachother. But for all the downsides of this thinking, the competition has done wonders for the hobby too - even if not everyone agrees.

One thing that is really different between then and now is that the trains were once made and marketed for kids - but now they are made and marketed to those same kids who are now grown up.

Whether you like the newer electronic controls or all the new scale detail, one thing this has done to benefit those other traditional operators who don't care for this stuff by making more older trains available on the secondary market. As modelers replace trains with the new features they want, they sell off their older trains that aren't up to snuff (at least for those modelers). Whereas at one time not so long ago folks were hording up MPC era stuff, now those train are pretty easy to find - even the ones that weren't so easy to find a decade ago.

So even if you are not into the newer type of scale electronic trains, we all benefit to some degree by them being around.

[Anonymous]

The PW stuff that is still around and running was the "good stuff". There were cheaper elements of the product lines and a lot that stuff is in land fills. I have some "modern" electronic loco's that are now approaching ten years in age and they work as well as they did when they came out of the box. Can I get "original" replacement boards? No! Can I get replacement boards that will allow them to work as well or better than they did when new? Yes! If you want to "collect" shelf queens, leave em in the box in the back of the closet. If you wan to play with your trains, by all means do so.

Side note: Can I literally kick the crap out of them the way I could a PW loco? Not a chance (unless it was a Williams). The detail/paint/electronics weren't meant to take that kind of punishment. Can I buy a starter set that I can kick the crap out of it and it won't matter? Yes.

[Bob Keller]

My washer story: I bought a Kenmore washer about eight years ago. It died last fall. The repair tech came out, made the diagnosis, and said it would cost $450 to fix. I said "I can buy a new one for that."

He nodded in agreement and said "These things shouldn't be disposable, but ..."

So disregarding a lesson learned from an episode of Gomer Pyle, USMC ("Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" ) I went back to Sears for another...

For quality overall, today's trains are far better crafted than the postwar or prewar gear. I've got postwar engines with file marks on them from the original manufacture. For all the neat things the guys at Lionel and Flyer did, some of their production would be sloppy by today's standards.

.... as for the electronics, so long as the train makers are still around, I suspect some sort of electronic parts will be available - though perhaps the high-tech version of a simple reverse unit to keep the train moving and stopping. Only our grandkids will know for sure what the long term future holds.

[Frank53]

disposable indeed - Epson color printers.

We run through them like poop through a goose. Have probably had at least eight in the past six years. Printer stops working or won't print well no matter how often you run the "head cleaning" . Get it fixed for who knows how much dough, or buy a new one for $79.99. Considering it's got $40.00 worth of ink cartridges in it, if I can get one that I can move those ink cartridges into, the new one cost about $40.00 bucks and it will be up and running in 30 minutes.

[Anonymous]

The shame of it all is that the manufacturers now adays,don't give the the tools to work on the new stuff yourself. You all know what I'm talking about. With old lionel you can go out and buy a manual whch gives you schematic drawings on every product that Lionel made over the last hundred years. If you need a part,you know what it is,call a supply house,ans as we say in the south,you getta dun yourself. there are no schematic drawings of current stuff out there that I know of. How does anyone know what the part is & how to order it from a manufacturer.??? Easter

[Birds]

The internet.

Lionel's website has exploded diagrams with part numbers for just about all of their current products. I have used it to see how brand new items are put together and what type of parts they contain. I have also found items 15 years old on their site.

You can also search their parts database and order them if needed. This database of parts includes some items that are not listed in their catalogs (such as the sound control buttons).

For older things there are other company's who sell CDs with all the diagrams, manuals, schematics, etc. These company's also sell parts for vintage as well as some newer items.

It has been my experience that many manufacturers include parts databases and exploded parts diagrams on-line. Yes there are some that can't be found because the items are considered "disposable" but I've used this method to find parts and repair items ranging from lawn mowers to rear projection TVs to train stuff to solar attic fans.

[cnw1995]

Isn't it interesting to see how electronic devices have become disposal? An mp3 player or CD player doesn't seem to work well anymore - toss it and get another. Instead of one 'family' camera - one gradually accumulates two or three - or rather, the photo function becomes part of a cell-phone or PDA. Why? They become obsolete or just can't be easily repaired. It feels sometimes as if I am at the tail end of a great cultural transition. That's one of the reasons why I like the pre-war and post-war trains - just to work with something 'fixable' with a bit of tinkering or that continues to run since being constructed in 1928. That said, I also admire the wonderous detail and sound of modern engines --- I realize I love to run things with sound so much more than without but I'm waiting on the day they quit.

[pbjwilson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw1995

It feels sometimes as if I am at the tail end of a great cultural transition.

Doug - I hear you. I started my painting business 15 years ago. The general scope of work was repainting old homes. In the process we would repair the old plaster walls, sand the woodwork smooth, paint everything with one coat primer and two coats of finish. Very labor intence, but the results were stunning. Now my work is painting homes less than 5 yrs. old. The scale of new homes are massive. Two story foyers and great rooms. It's more do it quick and put up some color. Craftsmanship is secondary.

I just got done with a job where the homeowner gutted and remodeled the kitchen and 6, yes 6, bathrooms in their home. The house is only 10 years old!

Everything does seem to be disposable these days, and people replace items in their homes just for fashion.

[Dave Farquhar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poppa_Zit

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dave Farquhar

Electronics aren't inherently bad--I own some computers that are 20 years old, and they still work just fine, and my main computer at home is five years old, works fine, and I have every intention of keeping it as my main computer for another 2-3 years at least.

Okay, Dave, I gotta ask.

What exactly are you running on those 20-year-old computers? They don't make software for them anymore, and my 20-year old Commodore64 didn't even have a hard drive! It ran only one program at a time, and you had to load it at bootup. But it had a whopping 64mb of RAM, and like most computers in those days used 5-inch floppies and I was able to do a lot of word processing on it... In later service, my trusty Commodore64 (and 128) served me well as a wheel chock, along with my Beta VCR, crystal-based CB radio, leisure suit, bubble-toed shoes and Kodak 110 cartridge film camera. LOL!

[msacco]

For quality overall, today's trains are far better crafted than the postwar or prewar gear. I've got postwar engines with file marks on them from the original manufacture. For all the neat things the guys at Lionel and Flyer did, some of their production would be sloppy by today's standards.

I'm gonna have to disagree here a little Bob. Yes today's trains are better crafted from an aesthetic viewpoint. Castings are cleaner, more detailed, and new paint methods are far superior.
But whenever I open up one of these new jobs the parts materials seem inferior to me. thinner metal, more plasticparts. And some of these parts have broken on me more than just once.
I have never opened up a modern engine and seen the overall mechanical craftsmanship that can equal my postwar f3 or other high end postwar loco.
Just my two cents.

[prewardude]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw1995

Isn't it interesting to see how electronic devices have become disposal? An mp3 player or CD player doesn't seem to work well anymore - toss it and get another.

This a bit off-topic, but would you believe that I have a second-generation Fisher CD player that turned 20 years old last Christmas? I have always said that when it dies, THAT'S when I'll get a new one. But it just keeps plugging along, in spite of hours and hours and hours of use. Computers and electronics have their place, but I don't like them in my trains - and don't even get me started on modern automobiles. [:(!]

Regards,
Clint

[brianel027]

There's the old saying of do you see the glass as half empty or half full? I'm not above having my rants and complaints about the hobby and the direction it "appears" to be going in.

But I am still thankful for what I have. I'm not into the command electronics or the scale detail. And if ANYONE gave me a grand with the instructions to go out and buy myself the train engine of my dreams, I would have $950 to give to the poor and I could still find a great train engine on what remains.

While so many are chasing the new top level trains, it has helped to make many other trains available. With the glut of the market, and the declining amounts of buyers, I think prices on many used items are pretty good and certainly better than the prices of many of the newer trains - which are being made at actual prodcution costs lower than they've been in many decades. eBay and the internet makes it easier than ever for older trains to be bought and sold.

I have bought exactly one new Lionel car in the past 5 years that was made in China since the closing of the US plant. On the surface it looked very nice. When I decided I wanted one of the road names Lionel intentionally ignores, the paint on the car strippped off the car faster than any other car I have ever stripped.... yes, the fastest! It was unbelievable to me. So while on the outside, the car had looked nice, obviously the paint job (on a durability level) wasn't as good as on other past made items - even though on the surface, the car "looked" nicer than some of those older made items. So half full or half empty?

I wholeheartedly believe that as a consequence of some of the recent list price increases, Lionel (and others) are hoping to see some leveling off of secondary (and collectible) prices. But I've never believed that any manufacturer controls market value, though many have tried. The manufacturers (more corretly the importers) should focus on quality, production affordable prices and marketing (notice I left out lawsuits).

For all their so-called faults, most of my cheap trains run just fine although I've been willing to make improvements where necessary. Despite their plastic gears, all my MPC era locos run just fine even to this day. And even though many of my newer locos have DC can motors, those motors are easy enough to replace should I have to. And I'm glad companies like Williams and RMT continue to make decent affordable trains at better price points than most of Lionel's prices. And had K-Line not focused so much on the high-end and "ruling the world," they'd still be with us too.

A final thought on quality... I have a cheap Lionel Rock Island Dockside switcher with DC can motors and an unpainted plastic body. I paid exactly 95 cents for the loco at a used store. High end quality loco? Obviously not. But at 95 cents I could afford to make some improvements (which I did) and that loco nows runs as good if not better than ANY LOCO costing hundreds more. It easily pulls 15 cars with diecast trucks... no stalling, no problems.

I actually feel sorry for some of those folks who say they could no longer enjoy their trains without the digital sound or control. I feel sorry for the never contented perfectionists who have to count every rivet and check marker light location to be sure it's prototypical. I promise you, I enjoy my cheaper non-scale 027 trains every bit, if not more, than some of those other folks.

And how ironic that us folks who are the easiest to please, have taken the back seat while the train companies mostly court the people who are almost impossible to please. Again, if K-Line had listened to me, they'd still be in business today. They chased the folks that can't be pleased and unfortunately got what they deserved.