Trainsounds Problem

[Nick12DMC]

Hi all,
Thought we had solved our problems with my sons Santa Fe Fast Freight
Set. As we are in the UK the CW-80 causes problems with the whistle and bell.
The answer was to replace this unit with a set up recomended by our UK Lionel
Dealer.
So I bought a UK power transformer made here specifically as a Lionel power
unit. A Cab 1 remote and a Powermaster. Problems should be sorted.

Wrong! [:(!]the whistle and bell still go off all the time. What is going on??
I have spent a lot of money trying to sort this set and now have a very upset 7 year old.[:(]

I have tried running a lighted car but this has no effect on the problem.
Any one run a Trainsounds Loco in europe and had the same problem?

Regards
Nick

[otftch]

This is reaching , but have you cleaned the wheels on the engine and tender.When doing shows we find the whistle and bell start going off for no reason.We clean the tender wheels and all the rollers, and the problem goes away.
Ed

[Lafondue]

have sometimes the same problem here in Canada...that usually time to clean tracks and wheels/ rollers.

I also found once or twice that overflowing the smoke unit may lead to leak in the engine and cause weird behaviour...in this case take the shelf out and wipe any excess fluid out.

Also maybe during shipping/ transport the trainsound board in the tender may have come a bit lose open the tender and just push everything back together.

Hope this help

By the way own 2 of those JR berks and they are amazing engine and they get better with time ( running wise). My first one from 2004 has almost 1000 hours of service and run like a charm.

[wrmcclellan]

Nick,

The Lionel whistle and bell functions are normally triggered by a positive or negative DC offset (about 3 to 5 volts DC) applied to the AC sine wave from the transformer by pushing an appropriate button (as you are aware). The bell is triggered by one of the DC offsets (postive or negative) and the whistle would be triggered by the other.

As you describe your issue, both whistle and bell are going continuously at the same time which means the Lionel circuit seems to be interpreting the slower 50 cycle waveform as both positive and negative DC offsets (at this point this is a guess on my part - Lionelsoni might have a better analysis if he looks at this post). I have a difficult time at the moment imagining how the slower AC waveform would cause the Lionel bell and whistle circuit to see this as + and - DC offsets, but it is certainly possible

Does your Lionel dealer have similar Lionel trains that operate properly with the setup he recommended?

If so, take your loco there and see if your loco works. If it does not work there, maybe your Trainsounds board has a problem.

If he cannot validate the setup he sold you, he should be willing to take a return and refund your money for the additional parts you purchased.

Regards,
Roy

[Nick12DMC]

Thanks for all the help.
Well I appear to have another 50/60cycle problem I solved one by getting rid
of the CW-80. But Lionel put another spanner in the works with the Trainsounds system.

Roy,
I talked to our Lionel Dealer who was very helpful. This is a new one
on them as the Trainsounds system has not been out that long.
I think they thought I had a Polar Express berk which has no problems
here in the UK once you replace the CW-80.
When I described the board its the same as those found in the Trainsounds
cars. They had problems with these with the same effects I am getting with
the berk. Its a 50Hz problem for sure.
I am really fed up as my only option is to to remove the board and maybe
try to source a plain whistle and bell board which is thought to work.

The technician at the dealer is now concerned as he has a S gauge loco on order with Trainsounds and is now pretty sure it won't work.
I think most people are running older loco's here in the UK as even the UK
Lionel club had not heard of a problem.

Maybe Lionel Customer service may be able to sort it...
I wi***hey would just test stuff for both 50Hz and 60Hz. I about ready to
give up on the whole thing and go back to Hornby 00 gauge, if it had not
been a present from santa to my son.

Regards
Nick

[Lafondue]

well it still funny that UK use 50 mhz ....being from Switzerland we upgraded to 60 mhz at least 15 years ago and I guess most Europe use now 60 mhz.

And don't blame Lionel for not making their engine/transformer 50 mhz user friendly .

[wrmcclellan]

Nick,

A question. Ignoring the whistle and bell for the moment, is the chuffing and steam sounds working "underneath" the bell and whistle sounds?

Another queston. Do the whistle and bell cease if you have the loco in neutral and turn the voltage all the way up (MAX or near MAX)?

And finally - is there a 9v battery installed in the tender?

Regards,
Roy

[wrmcclellan]

LaFondue - not sure what you mean by "most of Europe". I know personally that France and Spain are still 50 Hz standard.

This chart on the web says all Europe is still 50 Hz.

http://www.powerstream.com/cv.htm

[Nick12DMC]

Hi Roy,
Yes the chuffing and steam are sounds working "underneath" the bell and whistle sounds? The crewtalk will even try to cut in when neutral.
Bell and whistle do not cease in neutral at max power.
There is no battery or connections for one.


Lafondue,
Just who should be at fault? Lionel have a proper UK Dealer and
from that one would deduce that they intend to sell their products here.
Would you guys feel the same if Hornby's 00 gauge live steam set did not
have a US compatable power unit?? (It does by the way)
Or to put it another way your brand new Jaguar will only run on UK petrol.
You would not be happy.
Try buying over $1000 worth of equipment for your 7year old sons christmas
present that does not work correctly!

Regards
Nick

[Lafondue]

thanks for the info clellan....a small major mistake from me

[Lafondue]

well I try to understand ur problem...maybe try to contact Lionel Europe
http://www.lionel-europa.ch/

maybe they have a solution

I'm sure u will a get soon a solution

[Anonymous]

OK, here's my advice: You havea trainsounds system, and the whistle and bell are behaving erratically. Lionel suggests that you add a lighted caboose or other lighted car to the train, and you tried that, and it did not work. Right, did not work for me either. I use a trainsounds tender.

Anyway, what the problem seems to be is uneven power distribution from the transformer to the individual track sections. In other words, between your lock ons (between your transformer wires that connect to the track), you have too much track, and the power is being distributed unevenly. Start by cleaning the track (even if it is new and barely used), and the wheeels and pick up rollers, and then make sure that you have an output from the tranformer connecting to the track every 3 or 4 track pieces. That will smooth out the power distribution to the track, make the trainsounds work correctly, and save the day for the 7 year old.

[Nick12DMC]

Thanks Trevor,
Tried this but no dice. It is still acting up. The board is
not faulty.
Had more contact with the UK Lionel Club. They now know of 3 recent Lionel
products that have 50Hz compatibility issues and will not work in
Europe, Australia or New Zealand.
They are now getting very concerned about this issue as people
new to the hobby such as ourselfs are being put off from the start.

Tennents Trains(UK Lionel Dealer) have been handed a bum hand as they
have to deal with all the fall out from problems not of their own making.
I have now put the Problem to Lionel Customer support.
I will keep you posted on my progress.

Regards

Nick

[TomK]

I bought a new Lionel #6-26860 B&O boxcar with TrainSounds last October to add to my PA Flyer train set.  The whistle and horn (always) turned on and off in a random fashion.  My CW-80 transformer runs on 60 Hz.

It finally stopped working completely and I found that both the power wires on each truck had broken off at the solder connection for the center rail rollers.

I re-connected these wires and now (for the first time) the unit works "as advertised" in the manual.

FYIs

My guess is that there are two center rollers to avoid power interruptions that would trigger the erratic operation I experienced. If a single center roller was used these power interruptions would occur when the single roller is over center rail breaks at switches and crossovers. I noticed operations like the huff/chuff & whistle stopped over breaks and that the crew talk, and steam sounds did not work if the car was parked over a break. This is a good tell-tale that one of the center roller connections is open.

After examining the wiring to both trucks it looks like these wires are flexed at the solder joint when the trucks rotate over curved track (and, more so, when the trucks can turn in a full arc if the car is not on the track). I did not find strain reliefs for the wires connected to the truck components. So, even under normal use, I expect these wires may break (again).
There was a black wire wrap (like the ones used for closing plastic bags) that dresses the wires to the motion sensor board away from the moving parts in the truck.
I routed the power wires under this wire wrap and added a second to the other truck in hopes that it would reduce the flexing. Unfortunately, the huff/chuff motion sensor began to work erratically. So, I removed the original wire wrap which fixed this problem.

[jimhaleyscomet]

You probably do not want to do this but here goes anyway.   The only way I have heard of people running Lionel train electronics on 50 HZ is to convert it to DC and then back to 60 HZ.  So you would need a 50 Hz battery charger, a battery (perhaps a car battery).  Then you get a 60Hz power inverter (one that puts out pure sine wave, not chopped) to plug the transformer in. Total cost at least a few hundred dollars so probably not worth it.   Someone from Europe should be along to confirm this does or does not work. 

 Jim H

[lionelsoni]

Roy, I can indeed understand how 50 hertz can be interpreted as simultaneous positive and negative DC offsets by a marginal detector design.  The track voltage is doubtless being put through a simple low-pass filter intended to remove the AC and leave the DC.  The DC is compared against separate positive and negative thresholds to set off the different sounds.  The filter however lets through some small amount of AC, more at 50 hertz than at 60 hertz.  The peaks, both positive and negative, of this 50 hertz ripple are exceeding both thresholds, alternately 100 times per second, and triggering both sounds.  A simple cure would be, probably, a slightly larger capacitor in the filter (if we knew where to put it).

[Nick12DMC]

This is a real blast from the past.

We sorted this problem by running our trains from a 230V 50Hz AC to 12V DC 25amp power supply which in turn powers a 300W 120V 60Hz AC Pure sine inverter.

Along with Trainsounds the CW-80 also has 50Hz issues with the whistle and bell which causes more confusion. Add to this that some early CW-80's had a fault with the whistle and bell circuits on what ever power supply you were using 50 or 60Hz. So the problem was not fully recognised.

Over the last year since I became involved in the hobby this problem comes up regularly from places as far a field as South Africa and Australia. I was even contacted by a US Lionel dealer who had a foreign customer who was having trouble with the CW-80.

Its been the subject of articles in the Lionel Collectors Club UK Magazine. Letters have been sent from the Club to Lionel expressing concern on the frequency dependent designs in TMCC,Trainsounds & the CW-80. As far as I know there has not been a reply.

As Bob suggests some simple steps could have probably avoided these issues. I don't want to bash Lionel, I love the stuff but its frustrating for newbies who are put off from the start. Even more so when its a childs gift.

 Its also frustrating for Lionel fans worldwide who really believe in these trains and can see a big market waiting to be exploited. I could very easily see Lionel displayed in a top store in London like Hamleys as a premium product. But its not going to happen with these sort of design flaws. You can't sell a set and then say "that will be another £140 for the equipment needed to make it run sir"   (A few years back it would have been £500, Lucky pure sine inverters have droped in price!)

Bob, A fellow forum member Daan from Holland has been experimenting on a Trainsounds loco with a new capacitor. He was not having much success when he posted last, maybe he will update us.

Nick

P.S. Daan also informed me that a German company was about to launch a small power supply and inverter with enough 60Hz power to run a CW-80. I think they were talking about £70. 

 

 

[More to restore]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for keeping us updated with the 50-60 Hz issue and Trainsound. Honestly, I thought that you had sorted it out thoroughly and that your Polar Berkshire was running and whistling as it is suppose to do. I am slightly disappointed to hear that it does not fully work at the moment due to CW80's 50 Hz issues.

I have always been a conventional operator, but when I visited Daan during the X-mas holiday I saw his MTH Railsound proto 1 engines and it was truely fun to hear them run. So, I am now also considering going to a more modern Railsound/trainsound system, but your recent experience has warned me double. I do not have the electrotechnical skills to sort this out, so I better wait for the more skilled guys to find a solution. I do not think that Daan got the Berkshire Trainsound working yet, I hope he logs in and give us an update. BTW, this German shop only will start with this power convertor 230 V, 50 Hz -> 110 V, 60 Hz from March on, yes indeed for about 100 Euros.

Sorry to say that I can not help you. But I would appreciate if you could keep us informed of any progress, because more of us are interested in a solution. 

Best Regards

Egbert 

[ADCX Rob]

I somehow missed this thread from last year.

Bob will hopefully have some input here... but if I were having Nick's problems, I would try a UPS / Uninterruptible Power Supply meant to power a US spec computer.  If you're not relying on the duration of the backup battery feature, I figure you could run a good size transformer/layout with a modest(but accurate - voltage, & especially frequency-wise) UPC.  AND big ones are available.

This would cut out a lot of the intermediate charger/battery/inverter equipment. 

Rob 

[Anonymous]

 

As Lionel  will be offering  a Harry Potter "Hogwarts Express" train set this year, I performed an Internet search, hoping to find those in Europe who had an interest in Lionel Trains.  

 ... and, I did:   The Lionel Collector's Club UK    http://www.fastnet.co.uk/lionelclubuk/ 

Unfortunately, an email to the Club's secretary (Graeme  Swanson, Secretary, Lionel Collectors Club UK, Benview, Top Street, Conon Bridge, Dingwall, Rosshire IV7 8BH, Scotland) at   E-mail: [e-mail]   has brought absolutely no response.

There have been several posts on this, and other American model train forums with photographs of the club's train show at the Winter Gardens Hall, Ilkley, UK,  which was quite fascinating!

In particular, however, were the posted comments of the difficulties obtaining the necessary electrical equipment to run American 110v/60Hz trains on European 220v/50Hz current.

Question: 
Are there any UK forum websites, similar to those in the United States, that discuss both European and American model trains?

With Lionel's introduction of their first (actually, I believe this is their  second) European locomotive, I'm surprised that they have not designed and offered a transfomer that will allow their products to run on European current. 

In my opinion, Lionel is missing a great opportunity in making their products as popular as Hornby and Märklin to model railroaders in Europe. 

I really question how their UK European agent (distributor) Tennents Trains,  can boldy sell any Lionel product, knowing the difficulties and expense that it will take to operate them.

Also, how does one subscribe to the Lionel Collectors Club UK Magazine?

Is it available for viewing on the Internet?

 

 

 

 

[Nick12DMC]

Stevend,  The Lionel Collectors club UK web site is very basic at the moment. A new site is being worked on.

Very sorry you have had no response from the [e-mail]  the shortline editor Chris deals with the emails from that address. Chris is on holiday for an extended period. He should be back in early March. I have Graeme's email and will pass it on if you send me a email.

The club has been going for 25 years however it has realised that in order to get new membership it needs to promote itself and 3 rail O gauge and S gauge,standard gauge and give them a higher profile here in the UK.

I have not come accross any UK forums I am sure they are out there but Hornby has one on their site. I might suggest that the club sets up its own UK forum.

 What you have to appreciate is that a large number of the current membership are not into computers. This also goes for Tennents if it is not Steam driven they will not be intrested. I think this in Tennents case has cut them off from information that could be to their benefit i.e. Fixes for power problems etc. I would go as far to say that Tennents have been let down by Lionel as have the two other European dealers. They have taken all the flack for the CW-80, Trainsounds and TMCC power frequency issues.

One things for sure, the club has decided to really promote itself and Lionel/3-rail trains in the UK. This process is in its infancy but early signs are the Ilkley show being advertised in CTT (next months issue I think, in the what's on section) and a new website under development.

Another plan for the future is have the club show at diffrent venue's around the UK every other year. i.e. Ilkley, New Venue, Ilkley, New Venue. 

Shortline is not available on the Net yet.  Maybe in the future it will be in a members section of the website.

Shortline is sent to all club members so, your subscription starts when you join.

Our trains (my son and I) are run from a Pure sine Inverter set up so we have 60Hz power this has solved the problems with the CW-80 and Trainsounds and TMCC (as long as the command base is earthed correctly). However this set up cost around £140. Daan was working on the Trainsounds problem from a diffrent direction, by trying to modify the circuits to work correctly on 50Hz.

Regards

Nick

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nick12DMC]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for keeping us updated with the 50-60 Hz issue and Trainsound. Honestly, I thought that you had sorted it out thoroughly and that your Polar Berkshire was running and whistling as it is suppose to do. I am slightly disappointed to hear that it does not fully work at the moment due to CW80's 50 Hz issues.

I have always been a conventional operator, but when I visited Daan during the X-mas holiday I saw his MTH Railsound proto 1 engines and it was truely fun to hear them run. So, I am now also considering going to a more modern Railsound/trainsound system, but your recent experience has warned me double. I do not have the electrotechnical skills to sort this out, so I better wait for the more skilled guys to find a solution. I do not think that Daan got the Berkshire Trainsound working yet, I hope he logs in and give us an update. BTW, this German shop only will start with this power convertor 230 V, 50 Hz -> 110 V, 60 Hz from March on, yes indeed for about 100 Euros.

Sorry to say that I can not help you. But I would appreciate if you could keep us informed of any progress, because more of us are interested in a solution. 

Best Regards

Egbert 

Egbert,

I have sorted the problems in our case as I described with the inverter and showed you at the Ilkley show last year. I guess Daan has a lot of exsisting locos/equipment/layout powered by 50Hz so he is trying to sort the Trainsounds problem from a diffrent direction by modifying the Trainsound circuits to work on 50Hz.

Regards

Nick