Quick question: Do toy trains use DC motors?

[FJ and G]

I'm ordering some remote control parts and need to know that the motors are not A.C.

Thanks!

[Jim Duda]

I have been talking to Dave and he is referring to the motors used in Williams locos. I'm pretty sure their can type motors are DC.

The plan is to convert his Williams to true R/C so I'm suggesting a 2 channel radio, with an ESC that will handle 4.8 - 12VDC @ 30 amp max with reverse capability. He'll control the speed and direction of the train with the throttle stick. He'll lose the TrueBlast horn/whistle/bell but that is acceptable for now...

We're not sure if it will run fast enough on a 6 cell NiMh pack (7.2 volts) but we can always up the battery power. A trailing car will house the battery, ESC. I think it's as easy as wiring the can motors directly to the ESC and bypassing all the installed Williams electronics...

Stay tuned...

[Big_Boy_4005]

It depends Dave. Technically, even the old post war motors could be run on DC. It's the can motors that must be run on DC, but modern e-units convert the AC on the rails to DC.

What are you trying to do, and to what engines in particular?

[FJ and G]

Elliott,

I'm going to be attaching one of these:

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=PRB2314

and one of these (top photo):

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXARP0**&P=0

to make my trains remote control (along with battery paks); williams and mth primarily; not PW

[lionelsoni]

The wound-field motors run well on DC; but they don't reverse when you reverse the polarity of the voltage, which I gather is how you are planning to reverse the can motors. However, if you replace the e-unit by a bridge rectifier, the old-style motors acquire the ability to be reversed with voltage polarity too.

[Jim Duda]

Bob - he's going to use the can motors only...should be a piece o' pie since the radio and ESC control the voltage and polarity. I'm curious as to whether wiring the motors in parallel or series will prove to give the best performance, assuming his loco has more than one motor...

[Big_Boy_4005]

It will be interesting to see the speed range you get with that setup. The gearing should make for some decent slow speeds. Keep in mind that at a limit of 12V, you will be losing the top end of the motor's speed.

Jim, I would think the motors in a dual motor loco would have to be wired in parallel. Series would slow them down even more.

[FJ and G]

Hi Elliott,

I'm not a speed runner.

When up and running I'll post photos of the surgery and report on the performance etc etc ad nauseum!

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm not a speed runner either Dave. I was actually considering turning down the voltage on my TMCC layout from 18V to 15V.

[FJ and G]

If you do that Elliott, it'll take 3 days to go from point A to point Z on your spaghetti line [:O]

[jefelectric]

Big Boy,

I have been running my TMCC layout on 16 volts since converting. Only problem that I have encountered is one Lionel loco will not fire the electrocouplers at less than 20 volts.

Dave, Don't the G scale guys have a systems similar to what you are building?

[Jim Duda]

Guys - we all know Williams are geared for speed so the question is how fast will they run when a true 7.2 volts DC is applied directly to the MOTOR - how fast @ 12 volts DC?

Just because 16 volts AC is applied to the rails doesn't necessarily mean 16VDC is available to the motors...

[dougdagrump]

Dave, What about some of the pwer and control systems that are used in the "G" scale. Alot of them are using battery power and RC if memory serves correctly.

[FJ and G]

Hi Doug,

Yes, I posted some questions for the G folks too. I'm in the area of experimentation; using IR at night and during the day will try the 2 components l listed above; eventually perhaps figuring out how to do the lights, sounds, etc; but right now, more interested in forward, reverse and neutral.
----------------
BTW, I'm glad this group on CTT is respectful and accepting of my decision to do this and I hope to remain on this forum

[lionelsoni]

Jim Duda has something there. The MTH electronic e-units I have dug into have several diodes in series with the motors, beyond those used for rectification. I assume that they are trying for compatibility with transformers that traditionally start abruptly at 5 or more volts.

[wrmcclellan]

Dave,

I just tested a Williams FA power truck assembly with the Williams electronics and in round numbers, with 7 VAC to the track, the motor had 6 VDC (full wave bridge rectifier on the board with relays for reversing the DC to motor). It was moving at a moderate clip, not slow, not fast.

At 7.7 VDC (could not get it to settle at 7.4 volts - went higher or lower), it ran a decent track speed.

At 3.7 VDC it runs reasonably slow, but not really slow.

Sorry - without getting fancy with timing and spending more time on it, no better way to tell you the speeds with any precision. Williams locos are geared high for typical toy train like operation.

I did a similar test with a Lionel FT diesel power truck with similar results.

The can motors for the Lionel and Williams units are physically identical.

So I think youz giz choice of a 7.4 v battery supply will work well.

This sounds like fun Dave and Jim. Keep us posted.

Regards,
Roy

[wrmcclellan]

BTW - just tried 12 VDC on the Williams motor and it is flying - good thing I have 072 curves!

[FJ and G]

Thanks Roy,

Will keep ya posted fur sure fur sure.

I've used 6 V on DCS variable for Williams and these locos really fly even at that voltage. I may end up purchasing and comparing several different types, Jim Duda and I are looking at along with some garden dudes. Maybe 1 IR type; a low-end RC model and an upper-range RC model.

I'll provide all of the specs such as speeds, quirks, etc and plan to eventually do a magazine article on it. I'll also take detailed photos of the wiring before and after as well so that anyone can follow it. This is pretty exciting stuff for me.

[Jim Duda]

Roy - THANK YOU for your voltage/speed tests! The reason for the 6 cell (7.2V) or 7 cell (8.4V) suggestion for Dave is that these are readily available and prewired with connectors because they're used for R/C cars/trucks/boats in NiCd or NiMh at most hobby shops and/or on line.

Your test at 12 VDC has me wondering how much speed degradation occurs if you wired the motors in series? If he doubles the battery packs he'd have 14.4 VDC available and that might be too much...unless he runs it on Elliot's layout and pulls 500 cars...(wink)

[wrmcclellan]

Jim,

I think you guys have it right. If you go in series I would expect roughly half the speed.