MTH Engines & Quality

[otftch]

For RI JIM,
Check out "the other magazine" ,run210,page 61. Maybe "lying" was too harsh a word.
Ed

[laz 57]

Hi GIZ,
Finally somebody fromMTH knows how to read an Email.
Got a response, but the girl said she is going to forward it to parts.
Probably will take a few more weeks?
Anyway just maybe I'll get my side rods for the MTH Triplex tender?
Have a good nite?
laz57

[Anonymous]

Over the past couple of years. It seems as if I have something minor wrong with about every locomotive I've purchased though mail order. Railsounds won't work, Loco smokes where is isn't suppose to, etc. These are all Quality control issues and I'm not sure as to how to remendy the problem except to purchase your locomotive in person and have it tested completely as Buckeyeriveter suggests.

I own a a dozen or so MTH locomotives myself and have had problems with two straight out of the box. 1) A Railking U.P. Fortyniner 4-6-2 who's tenders wheels were installed with the flanges to the outside. Fixed by pulling the wheels and reintalling them myself. 2) A Primier N&W J 611 4-8-4 who's station sound effects for the the Powhatan Arrow. Called out Louisville, Ky as it's final destination! An insult to this N&W fan and native Cincinnatian. The problem was brought to the attention of MTH and I was able to have the proper destination of "Cincinnati" downloaded into the locomotive at my local (Davis Trains) hobby shop.

MTH make a good product and I wouldn't have any fear in purchasing one of their Locomotives. I love mine and will buy MTH again.

[brianel027]

I don't own any MTH locos for the simple matter of many of the earlier Railking modern diesel types were just too tall or in my opinion, poorly reduced in size. I also do not care for all the extra electronic frills. But that aside, I have run some earlier Railking locos on my layout and found them to be very nice locos.

And having either personally heard or read what the CEO's of the various companies have said, I think Mike Wolf does have a lot of passion for the hobby and the products he makes. For example I was in a situation where I head an executive from one of the other companies looking over their products and say "I think this will be a good seller."

On the other hand, I think Mike is the kind of guy who would have a big smile on his face, be jumping up and down and say "I can't wait to get this home and run it on my layout."

I'm not saying that MTH or any of the others haven't or don't have quality control issues, or customers who have been wronged... that just seems to be a given in the mass proudction business. Laz's photo bears this one out. And given that these products come from halfway around the world and get jostled around a lot with shipping, it's no wonder that wires or other things don't come loose. Or that products are made missing pieces... the average Chinese or Korean worker on the assembly line probably doesn't have a complete understand of the final products they are putting together.

I do know that MTH does (or at least did) have one of the most favorable wholesale arrangements for small dealers with a 3-tiered pricing structure. Of the other bigger companies, MTH appeared to be trying to support its dealer network more so than others. Again though, that's not to say there aren't problems. In the pages of Classic Toy Trains, Mike Wolf made a point some years ago that he is putting a lot of money into product development and wants to be paid for product delivery in a prompt fashion.

Again, it is for mostly a size consideration, but the few MTH products I have I consider to be very nice. The operating dump cars are a little big but real nice.... I gave mine to my nephew who is thrilled with it. One of my Rugged Rails cars is the older issue Chessie yellow gondola. I bought it years ago at a local shop because I could clearly see the quality that went into the car... unlike others, this car was really opague. K-Line used white styrene for its' cars, so most lighter colored cars are not opaque. I know it's not a big issue, but I don't want gondolas where you can see the light of the room shining through the sides of the car. The yellow Chessie Rugged Rails gondola passes that test, where as many yellow cars from other makers do not.

When I did have more money to spend on trains, I always bought MTH stuff from a local shop. I had a dealer who was kind enough to let me pull the item out of the box and compare the size to lets say a traditional 6464 sized box car. And to also see if the item cleared 027 switches. Not a big deal for many of you, but for me it is a big deal. I figured a guy who was nice enough to let me do this deserved my patronage. You certainly do not get that kind of "answer" from a mail order venue.

[winrose46]

I started with Command Control engines 2 years ago and I started with Kline and Lionel and TMCC. Of those 10 engines, none were DOA; however, after use the Lionel had to have the receiver board replaced, and one Kline over heated and stopped after about 50 hours of use. I have subsequently purchased 19 MTH engines with non DOA. After 10 hours of use the slave unit on SF E-6 failed (common problem with that batch) and a WM SD40-2 has failed after 200 hours. I do believe that MTH does QA their engines before shipping them from Laurel; however, I am not sure whether during this past Christmas rush, they performed both convention operational checks and DCS checks because I have only antidoctal information. I have been in the computer industry for over 35 years and nothing in the train electronics has convinced me otherwise that if electrical components do not fail in the first 30 days of use they probably will not fail for a long time. I do not have any issues with MTH's QA in my experience with their engines.

[laz 57]

Heres the pic of my MTH Virginian Triplex minus the main rod and piston rods.
How could have they missed this?


laz57

[jimhaleyscomet]

When I worked in a factory the month end was always critical to "meeting the monthly quota". At the beginning of the month all qualtiy procedures were followed to the letter. As the last day of the month approached overtime went up, the factory would run out of a few parts, and the crush of production numbers caused all kind of short cuts to be taken. About 50% - 80% of the items would be shipped the last week. They would "build items", book them as manufactured, and then add the missing parts the next month before the actual shipping.

This probably happens with trains as well. Expecially as a full container full of production is approaching completion. All of the money tied up in that container is waiting for the last engine to be built...so probably just about anything passes out of the factory.

Jim H

[laz 57]

BUCKEYE, you got that right with the poor visual inspection. Maybe they are like me and need glasses to see things up close?
Now I wonder if anyone at MTH knows how to read and answer a E-mail and respond to the missing side rods?
laz57

[Buckeye Riveter]

I would like to make a comment about "Quality Control".

Even if a company has the very best QC program ever devised for their type of product, it will not be perfect because it is controlled by humans. I would assume all manufactures on O Gauge trains have some type of QC program. Some will do more than others. Some will have continuous quality control programs.

I don't have any MTH engines, but I bet that MTH's quality control "policy" put in place by management is to test each engine. Assuming that to be true, the problem is; What is the meaning of "test". If one in twenty engines runs 10ft. down a straight test track pulling nothing, is that the extent of the testing? Or is the test two hours of continuous running with five horn (or whistle) sounds, two sudden stops, three changes in speed, smoke on/off, couple/uncouple. What testing means to me may be something completely different than for someone else, but whoever is in charge of testing at a manufacturer better know what their policy is and how the testing procedure for their company is to be implemented.

Unlike many products, I don't believe Toy Trains are required to meet independent testing standards. The consumer with money in hand is the judge of the real quality. Spin is spin and advertising is advertising.

As a consequence of hearing all the stories, I have not purchased an engine at a store or a show without a test run. (Somebody a long time ago told me this was a good idea and for once I paid attention.) If a store is not willing or able to test the engine for you, I would suggest finding a new store. (My Lionel CSX Diesel was put through all the hoops before it left Davis Trains. )

BTW, LAZ your missing side rod problem is poor, really poor. In fact, because it doesn't take anything more than a visual inspection, it should be up there with the top ten stupid production mistakes. Yuz be the winner!!

[ChiefEagles]

When getting back into the hobby, I got MTH engines [small diesels with sound that I thought was OK, but now??] . Only one minor problem with one. I have only one MTH steam engine and it is great. Sounds are great and smoke is outstanding. Now to two new diesels I just got [been ordered for two years]. Horrible sounds and horns. I am very disappointed. I have quite a few Lionel diesels and their sounds are outstanding [horns too]. Both MTH and Lionel are great in slow operation. Both pull great long heavy trains. The Lionel has to have some mods to make it smoke good but it will. Too much smoke from a diesel is not realistic anyway. I have one Atlas diesel and it is Lionel in sounds and operation. Lots of detail [some so small you want to be careful in touching]. I have one PS1 diesel that I was going to convert to TMCC [with Equalizer] but then opted to pull all the "guts" out and install TMCC and Railsounds [for more realistic sounds].

[Anonymous]

I purchased over 40 MTH Ps1 and PS2 units over the years. My out of box failure rate was 15% with MTH. With Lionel it was 18%. I was lucky with K-Line as I had no failures with 10 of their locos. I think all the brands have significant quality problems,just the nature of the beast. I have had to take apart a significant amount of everyones product and repair them right out of the box . I believe I read a CTT editorial once where they had problems with over a third of all products they tested. I would buy the product where I perceive value for my money and not be brand specific.

Dale H

[RI Jim]

Ed, I take exception to your last comment where you stated that "Mike Wolf was lying". Before you post inflammatory comments like that, I suggest you get your facts straight and have some proof to back it up. It's comments like that that get the foamers riled up and it's where things get ugly.

IMO, I believe that QC is an ongoing concern for all of the train manufacturers and they are all doing their level best to address thet problems.

[otftch]

I have a problem with Mike Wolf lying during his interviews."Every piece is tested before shipment." It sems just the few problems related above bear me out.
Ed

[dbaker48]

I really appreciate all the time and effort on the inputs. I would have immediately dismissed one of the shops comments, but when both came back with the same response I was a little concerned. Then when I look at their catalog and the extensive coverage on engines of all types. Something just didn't make sense.

I definetly will pursue the MTH, regarding the train shops, sometimes its frustrating when emphasis is spent on selling current inventory only, and not listening to the customers.

[msacco]

Yep, I would lose that hobby show quickly. I don't think, from a quality control issue there is much difference between the two major manufactururers. Each has their large share of QC problems. For what it's worth, and I don't buy a ton of new stuff, I've never had a DOA from either manufacturer. A coupler that Needed adjustment or something similiar was the worst case.

Mike S.

[Anonymous]

Don, you have just experienced your first taste of the O-guage political partisianship that rears its ugly head too often. If you lurk around the forums enough you will read all about it. A few folks (dealers included) hate MTH and some hate Lionel, the discussions can get ugly from time to time but not so much on this site. Then there are the rest of us who just like trains. I suggest you buy yours from one of them!

[jonadel]

I order from three hobby shops in IA (spread the joy) and not one requires money down.

Jon

[spankybird]

BTW - Glen's trains do NOT require anything down on pre-orders.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dbaker48

I was finally able to get a MTH catalog, and found some engines extremely desirable, and resonable pricing. I have talked to two different train shops in our area, and both had similiar feelings.

1. Quality issue a major concern 25% doa !
2. Will only order if customer is very insistent , then requires 50 to 75% down payment.
3. No returns, or exchanges
4. All warranty needs will only be satisfied by manufacturer.

Sounds like you need to find a new hobby shop....those dealers are actually nuts..50-75% down for a loco?? Am I glad I dont live there!

The 3 local shops in my area all request at least 20% down, and I can combine any items I want together.

I have 2 MTH PS1 diesels...a CSX and a Santa Fe, and except for the battery replacement, they both run well for me, and they were both bought as displays from the shop too.

Chris

[Anonymous]

Around the mid 90s, pre PS-1 days, I received my first MTH item. A 408-E. Put it on the track and nothing. Called MTH and I took it apart while on the phone with a rep. Seems the E-unit somehow was in pieces in there. The rep told me how to wire it so it would run in one direction only so I could run it while the defective E-unit was returned. They sent me a new one but I never put it in. That 408-E is my best runner. Put it on the track and go.

[overall]

I have four MTH diesels and they all worked out of the box w/o problems. They continue to run well too.

George

[jonadel]

I have 14 MTH PS2's on the roster and have not had one problem out of the box, 2 of them are Premier's and the rest Railking. I would take my business elsewhere from the two dealers you talked with, there are many able and credible dealers who will work hard for you.

Jon

[spankybird]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mpzpw3

The way I understand it, MTH will no longer repair anything at their facility. You must take it to an autherized service center for repairs. I think I would purchase from an authorized dealer just so it could be returned if there was a problem.

IT is my understanging that MTH is only doing warrenty repairs at the factory. All out of warrenty repairs are being done at service centers. [;)]

[Birds]

Can't speak to the engines...

The other week I purchased one of the new 2006 MTH scale skeleton cars. The casting of one of the four cleats that cradles logs was incomplete (one of the cleats was not present). This was a pretty obvious defect, but the piece made it past QC.

It was purchased from an authorized MTH dealer and they exchanged it without question.

Birds

[laz 57]

I have 3 MTH steam engines a Southern Crescent Premiere, Rail King Southern 0-6-0 switcher and the Virginian 2-8-8-8-2 Triplex all run great NO problems except that MTH still did not re Email me on supplying me with the side rods that are under the tender of the Triplex. Although I am still able to run the engine and it does run great, they still made a big mistake in quality control by not picking up on the missing side rods. I have emailed them three times with no response. That is the only complaint I have with the company other then that they have some fine products out there.
laz57

[mpzpw3]

The way I understand it, MTH will no longer repair anything at their facility. You must take it to an autherized service center for repairs. I think I would purchase from an authorized dealer just so it could be returned if there was a problem.

[spankybird]

HI Don, I have about 20 or so MTH engines. Only one was DOA and MTH fixed it. Many of the MTH dealers around here are also authorized repair centers for product that they sale. There are also National repair centers for item bought from other dealers. I believe even Lionel warranty is to return it to the factory or repair center.

Try Glen’s Trains in Akron, Ohio. He normally sales things at 10 to 15% off list.
330-253-6527.

25% is a very high number and I find that hard to believe for any of the manufactures.

[dbaker48]

I was finally able to get a MTH catalog, and found some engines extremely desirable, and resonable pricing. I have talked to two different train shops in our area, and both had similiar feelings.

1. Quality issue a major concern 25% doa !
2. Will only order if customer is very insistent , then requires 50 to 75% down payment.
3. No returns, or exchanges
4. All warranty needs will only be satisfied by manufacturer.

Wow, this seemed really odd ! I see and hear a lot on the forum about MTH, not any complaints? Maybe these guys don't like the commission or some other issue. These comments aren't typical, are they? I only have Lionel engines and was considering some MTH.

Any comments?

Thanks !