Would you pay more for trains made in the USA?

[Odd-d]

FJ&G----Last month we had new carpet installed in our home. The work was done by two very nice hardworking non English speaking Mexican men. The contractor, a white American, assured me that both men were legal and they both earned from $300,00 to $500.00 PER DAY. Even though I am too old and my agility is eaten up with arthritis I am sure that most American citizens, black or white would like to have those jobs at that rate of pay. In fact, several years ago I had new carpeting installed in an addition to my house. The workers were white men. I don't care who installs my carpets. I don't hire the workers, the contractor does, but my point is that aliens don't just work for peanuts. They make good money by anyone's standards. At least these two gentlemen were here to install carpets instead of to kill me. Odd-d

[Odd-d]

LS1HELI----- You not only hit the nail on the head, you hammered it all the way in. All these sanctimonious "BUY AMERICA" sixpack patriots crying about how Lionel's jobs went to China are chasing their horses after the barn door was left open. Why didn't they refuse to buy from MTH or KLine when THEIR jobs went overseas? It's just a little late to complain when they were gobbling up all those Chinese choo-choos and not buying Lionel trains because they were too expensive when they were made here in the land of the free and the home of the overpaid. Years ago the unions were needed because working people were being egregiously exploited but now they have killed some of the big industries like steel mills and some mining, airlines and our own favorite industry, railroads. Do I worry that some bigwigs and "knights of labor" are now going with smaller pensions and less health care? Not when my poor little pensions couldn't support a cat and I pay all my health care expenses out of my own pocket. If I have to do it why shouldn't everyone else?
This is a big world and nobody can relax and be cared for any more. Not you, not him....and definitely not me. Odd-d

[FJ and G]

BTW, one topic I don't think was ever covered here is that of illegal aliens.

In my neighborhood, I would venture to say that quite a few "undocumented workers" (to use a pc-friendly term), are doing construction.

Toy trains could be produced for a lot less by these folks, right here in the US?

Or, perhaps toy train companies are supposed to have higher ethical standards than the construction industry?

[FJ and G]

spodwo,

Your statement is remarkable, coming from an ex-union guy. Glad to see someone speaking forthrightly and giving a different view than most I've seen.

BTW, I bookmarked your website, which is outstanding (O and G). I may use a few ideas from your photos

[spodwo]

Nope.

I come from a Union Town. I was in a Union. I have seen the manufacturing plants close here. Work was shoddy....horrible....the feeling of "I deserve to make $20.00 an hour" was rampant....

You would pay more for a quality of work that is "acceptable".

Eventually it will all even out....China consumes a lot also. Eventually their demands for cars, electronics, and toys will will further drive up costs [along with oil and wages].

[brianel027]

LS1, you make some good points. It is a global economy and as a member of the human race, I know the guy overseas desires just as much to take care of his family as the guy does here in the US. So people everywhere need to be productive and need the means to make a living.

But as I said above, this has come at a cost to the US. I guess maybe you feel it more if you live in an area that has been dramatically hit by job losses to overseas, where unemployment is high and starting wages reflect the advantage the hiring employer now has. Jobs that never required more than a high school diploma now require a college degree. Let me ask, would you spend 2 years at college to qualify for a security guard at $8.50 per hour? They won't hire you unless you have the degree. How many here had a mom who was a secretary? In these parts, a college degree is essential to even be a secretary. How much costly education do you need to work a FAX machine?

Matter of fact it was on the news tonight that Wal-Mart plans to open another 1,500 US stores. Nothing against Wal-Mart, but try working at one and see if you can support yourself without receiving Food Stamps and other subsidies.

I personally have never said Lionel's quality is going down. Most starter set items are now painted whereas they weren't before. But with the lower production costs, one would hope so. And some of the starter sets and add-on packs are reasonable values. But we also live with a Wal-Mart mentality and no one expects to pay full list price. So where $179.99 may seem like a fair list price, consumers expect and demand a discount, which does the local train shop owner not much good. As local shops cannot compete with mail order, local shops close which doesn't help visability of the products.

Yes, there are train buyers who could afford to pay more and have gotten spoiled by the frequent blowouts and mailorder discounts. But the train companies play into these buyers: rather than expanding the market base, they hope that established train buyers will buy more than they can reasonably afford to run.... and that has worked up until recently. Competition has its' advantages, but there needs to be a suitable market base to sustain all of that competition. Hence the blowouts. And why would anyone, even a rich man, want to pay $600 for a train loco he can get months later for up to half off. You can call him cheap, but you can also call him smart... that's just common sense.

Believe me, it bugs me to see retired US workers who I know made a very decent American wage, driving foreign cars and shopping on the cheap instead of supporting the current American wage earner. Yes, this may be the world we live in today and this may be how it works. Which is also why taxes here keep going up and crime too... folks are being busted here for meth labs by the score and many times they don't look like drug dealers... they are older and homeowners, so why? Unemployed.

But there are other train buyers who are "cheap and frugal" because they have no other choice - other than not participate in the hobby. I know of a few train guys who have been downsized by the change in economics and are not making even half the money they once did. Fortunately with the new interest in scale and hi-tech, enough older trains are on the secondary market (with not enough buyers) to keep those prices reasonable if one hunts around.

As for stateside versus overseas quality, there might not be much difference. But you sure wouldn't need all the extra packing to protect products on the long long container journey across the Pacific with multiple loading and unloading. And you might not have so many unattached wires inside from being jostled around in transit. That seems to be a big complaint I have read frequently.... it's happened to me too.

As for me, I'm not complaining. My one and only real gripe with everyone manufacturer has been the lack of modern roads on basic starter kinds of products. But as for me, I paint my own... thank you MicroScale. As for the train companies, they will do as they will. They can sue eachother out of business... they can raise prices as much as they like. But given the general state of the American consumer, I don't believe higher prices will help growth. In my area, real trains are very visable and frequent.... kids know about and actually like watching trains. I've showed the recent catalogs to enough parents in my travels to know full well by know what their reaction will be.

And ironically the place where it is reported that half of America shops at (which is also the number one importer of Chinese made goods) does not carry Lionel trains. Though they did have Athern HO sets this past holiday season.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MartyE

In a word...NO.

[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto]

[LS1Heli]

The Facts:

Would I NO.

Fact #1

After been on this board for several months now, I consistently read posts and comments from extremely frugal and cheap people. No one is EVER satsified. Lionel, YEAR AFTER YEAR consistenly offers high quality starter sets at resonable prices. What is so expensive about asking retail $179.99 for a complete set with smoke?

And now you guys are saying that if it had USA on it (which would mean NO difference quality,performance, reliability-and you know that) that your going to pay $259.99 for it!

YOUR NUTS! and there is no way anyone would pay more.

I am tired of people bashing modern economics. This is the world we live in today and this is how it works!

Fact #2 (my personal favorite-I love this one)

Then there is this dope which I have seen over and over and over it makes me sick. He goes to the York show or other train shows looking for Lionel. Walks up and down the aisles cursing and bashing new Lionel products "made in China" "electronics" what junk he says!

And then what does he do?

He leaves the show with his 2343 all proud and happy, gets into a Honda Accord(because Consumer Reports said their the best [V]), fills up with gasoline from an Arab terrorist country, comes home and slips off his Nike sneakers made in Indonesia, sits down puts his feet up on the Sweedish coffee table he bought at IKEA and then picks up the remote and puts on his Mitsubishi 45" TV. I am sorry, but what a [:o)]

Fact #3

People think that Lionel Trains since they were made in China that the are junk-which is simply not true.

What is the definition of quality? There is NO item manufactured by man and NO company that works backwards which is what many people feel about Lionel.

If one was at a classic car show, and someone said "my 1956 Corvette accelarates, handles, brakes, is smoother and has better paint and hardware quality than your 2006 Corvette"- thats right you would look at him like he was an idiot.

What would you say if someone came up to you and said "my Apple IIC computer from 1983 is faster, more user friendly, more reliable and more realistic than your Comapq pentium 4"? I would say what an idiot.

Fact #4

Older collectors feel offended. The only toy that ever brought joy as a kid that no other toy every could is still alive an breathing, but resides in red China. Majority of CTT readers are baby boomers- my dad's age. They are afraid of electronics, modern materials and mfg. processes. They get nervous and have anxiety attacks when popping that shell off of a new F-3.


[#wstupid]

[Anonymous]

I do pay for trains made in the USA. It is called ebay, and some reputable sellers I have found who sell postwar used Lionel. My favorite trains are from '46 throught the 50s. I also like Lionel when it was in Mt Clemens. For the price of Chinese, I can get good original postwar Lionel iron which will last forever. This stuff now-how will it be fixed when it breaks in the future? I just look in my Greenburg guide, look up the part and order it. Sometimes I need advice, as the postwar era is before my time-I am only 34. This board has sure helps diagnosing problems. Try that in the new stuff. One thing I have noticed is the Chinese stuff is the same price or higher that Lionel had before they went to China. What gives? My 6 year old doesnt care about protosounds and railsounds. He just wants the engine to run and smoke.

Lionel needs to come back to the USA. Make some simple trains, based off the 50s technology. Make a 2055 with smoke and an air whistle. Make it in several road names. Use the same boxcar mold, just paint it differant. Bring ak the KW and junk the CW. In other words, less tooling, more roadnames like Williams. Or sell engines plain and have decals in your favorite roadname you apply. Set up shop in a college town and offer both employment in assembly and internships in quality control and production.

Lionel-are you listening?

[Anonymous]

I can tell you that from experience that making the items overseas is significantly less than manufacturing them domestically. We make all of our items here in the US, but I have received quotes from overseas. Those prices are usually about 1/10 of what it would cost to manufacture here in the US. However, we still feel that making our products here is something important. We are proud to mark our items "made in the USA".

[Nick12DMC]

I am a Toolmaker by trade. A lot of tooling is made in China and India.
CNC Machine tools and CAD/CAM are not cheap and you have to recoup
your investment. i.e a wire edm machine is around £100,000.
Toolmakers are some of the top paid manual workers (at least they are here
in the UK). So it easy to see how savings can be made.

I do think it is a sad state of affairs that here in the UK we seam to want to
move away from Engineering into the service industries.
People don't like to get dirty these days...
You can't beat a fully equiped Toolroom or Machine Shop, heaven.
I may have gone a bit off topic sorry

Regards
Nick H

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G


...
Maybe I'm missing something here, but if high tooling costs are unavoidable, then why doesn't a manufacturer just make a few outstanding quality products and a low price?

To use an analogy, i'd rather eat a great hot dog for 3 bucks at a hot dog stand than go to the Ritz-Carlton restaurant where 200 items are on the menu at $50 a plate, and none are satisfying.

Even a for great product, just how many USRA Mikados do you want? Enough to get his amortized tooling costs down enough to support low prices?

To follow your analogy: Do you want to eat that hot dog every meal day in day out? Have to be a really special hot dog to keep me going through more than 3 or 4 meals straight.

Enjoy
Paul

[MartyE]

In a word...NO.

[FJ and G]

Palallin,

This issue of "tooling" seems to come up pretty often. I'm not sure why it's so expensive. Years ago, they had to do a lot of manual labor to make the tooling but now there are CAD-driven devices that can carve (using lasers or water jets) just about any type of mold.

Take a gander at American Chopper. Those guys bought a water jet machine that creates custom steel motorcycle parts, with a CAD-type program. Puts out some really nice parts too.

I don't see why these types of machines cannot mass-produce just about anything on spec.

Perhaps the process needs to move into the 21st century?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if high tooling costs are unavoidable, then why doesn't a manufacturer just make a few outstanding quality products and a low price?

To use an analogy, i'd rather eat a great hot dog for 3 bucks at a hot dog stand than go to the Ritz-Carlton restaurant where 200 items are on the menu at $50 a plate, and none are satisfying.

[palallin]

Just as a parenthetical: Tooling costs are a Red Herring: nothing prevents a manufacturer from having the tooling made overseas and using it here if the savings are substantial.

[boneheadbassboy]

HELL YES!!!!!

Boneheadbassboy

[msacco]

Yes Branelo27 very well-stated. My feelings exactly.
I can't seem to wonder if the whole thing will just collapse on itself.
I personally would love to see a return to less new models every year, less high-end stuff that doesn't work (or not for very long) and is designed with zero longevity in mind, and better Quality control with made in America Trains.

Mike s.

[dbaker48]

brainelo27 - Very well said ! Individually were for ourselves, as a group very economically patriotically concerned. Such a oximoron?

[artyoung]

There is good quality trains made here for a reasonable price : Weaver/Quality Craft Models.

[Rescuedtrains]

Someone explain this to me.
Looking at dress shirts at J C Penney I found two nice broadcloth, button down shirts. One was actually made in the USA the other was made in Sri Lanka. For all intents and purposes they appeared identical. The shirt made in the USA was $24.99 the shirt made in Sri Lanka was $27.99. HUH? I did buy three USA shirts and would have even if the prices were reversed.

Now to whine a little. Picked up a box of standard staples and a small plastic wastebasket at a local store this week. After I got home and took them out of the bag I discovered that they both were made in China. Come on, we can't even make staples or a wastebasket? We have to import them?

Steve

[brianel027]

I don't think there is any reason to have to pay more for the trains being American made, but there is a small disclaimer to that notion, which I will get to...

In 1995 the list price of the Lionel basic starter car was $17. Amercian made at UAW wages no less. Today, that car is just about $30 list at wages that are a mere fraction of what the American Lionel worker was being paid. So what gives?

Lionel's prices have not really dropped since the move to China and neither did K-Line's when they moved to China years ago. What the move to China did was enable the companies to put more money into tooling of new products.

In the glorious postwar days of toy trains, a new product could be tooled up and then run for years with little complaint. New products could be offered by simple additions and modifications of previous products with little complaint. This practice today doesn't bother the toy train enthusiast as much as it might the more advanced operator.

The fact is, we could not and would not see all this new scale proportioned product today if it weren't for the foreign production. Tooling costs in the USA are just too high to enable the companies to introduce such large quantities of totally new products from totally new tooling that has not had the opportunity to reap a return. I suspect even with the cheaper foreign tooling costs, there is still a lot of debt or tied-up investment money from all this new tooling.

Folks today love all this new scale detailed product with all the new electronic features. But it comes at a cost. Even Mike Wolf has admitted that he has millions of dollars invested in the development of DCS alone.. somewhere between 6-10 million if I remember right. That is A LOT of money for a toy train company to have invested into one single operating system. Nevermind the millions he probably has into all of the new tooling that MTH made. So it stands to reason that the other companies pursuing the same types of products also have large amounts of money tied up into new product development. No doubt, this is why starter sets and related products continue to be the same products that have been around for decades. The novice buyer looking for a first train set isn't complaining about rivet counts and prototypical detail.

So yes, the advanced train buyer of today is far more demanding and less compromising than ever before. But the train companies have been more than willing to try and accomodate this buyer. I can't imagine there was once ounce of affection between Mike, Maury and Wellspring. All 3 companies had made their intentions known to rule the 3-rail train market, and the result has been a glut of expensive products aimed mostly at the high-end of the market, which isn't large enough to adequately support all of this new product.... so one player down with K-Line. I don't know why folks act so surprised and unbelieving? We all knew that one of the companies wasn't going to make it and even the companies themselves knew it and admitted as much in the pages of our two toy train magazines.

Gargraves is made in the USA at competitive prices. Ameritrains are made in the USA at competitive prices. Weaver makes a portion of it's product in the USA. Can it be done? Sure. But none of these companies are offering so much newly tooled product as to the point that they cannot afford it.

The other thought to bear in mind is as all these companies (not just train makers) eliminate American jobs to go overseas, who is going to fill the void here? For a mid-40 to 50 year old worker with years in manufacturing, a service/retail/CSR job will not come close to offering a suitable income. Companies today don't even want to hire this age group and that's a well known fact: this age group has been hit the hardest by the job losses to overseas. It was on the national news that this age group has seen a pronounced increase in suicides, to what is suspected as depression from lengthy unemployment. It typically takes this age worker about 2 years to re-enter the work force, and usually at a dramatically lower salary. How interesting too, that this age group is also the largest age group of 3-rail model train operators.

No, the world is not ending. But there are big changes happening and we've been seeing it for years... do you think any train company would be blowing out $600 train engines for half price unless they weren't selling in the first place??? And although there are blowouts across the board, the majority of them are on higher-end products.

Yes, we've become a Wal-Mart society in that we all want things for the best and lowest price. But while prices drop on many in-demand consumer goods, the prices of our trains are not dropping, but going up quite a bit instead. You don't need a college degree to know that folks cannot buy what they cannot afford (without going into credit debt). And it's only a matter of time until yet one more train importer bites the dust due to their own foolishness (unresolved lawsuits and new ones too) and the single mindedness of their marketing/product efforts.

[Nick12DMC]

I think I would pay a little more for trains made in the USA or UK.
I had been out of the hobby for about 10 years when I bought my son a
Hornby train set. I got it home and saw Made in China on the bottom
of the box.
My reaction was one of horror! what happened to Homby Dublo British and
Guaranteed?
We had a MGF but it kept going wrong guess thats why they went bust. My 1981 DeLorean is much more reliable. Now my wife and I have Alfa Romeo's Made in Italy last time I looked[:)]

Nick

[selector]

If you want the most out of your discretionary spending, you are not likely to spend it on a few items at the expense of doing without others. We want it all, and we want it at the best price possible. The manufacturers know this, so they do what they can to get that product into our grateful hands as cheaply as they can. If that means off-shore labour, then that is what they pursue.

Dave, I don't profess to know exactly how much more a BLI PRR J1 would cost me if it were made by union-championed assembly staff and craftsmen in the USA, but I can tell you with conviction that I would purchase it from the source that offered it at the best price, especially if I were down to the last few dollars for the foreseeable future. If that meant "Made in Slovenia", as my IHC Mike is (it was a gift, well meant), I guess the Slovenes would have their share of my patronage.

Nationalistic purchasing is all well and good, but it would likely shrink the purchasing population in a hurry.

[okiechoochoo]

I wouldn't pay more, not at all. We all have to get a grip on this or we will sink as a nation. We have to trim down our expensive lifestyles. Where do we think the high paying jobs are going to come from with manufacturing going overseas. Come on Americans, give up those SUV, Cadillacs and huge expensive houses and get back to living like we did in the 1940s and 1950s. Then we can get competitive in the job market.

[IronHoarse]

In the past I have tried to buy American when possible. Sometimes that is not as easy as you may think. In 1978 I bought a brand new Ford Van thinking it was an American made product. Wrong. One day not long after buying it I noticed a tag inside the driver's side door that said " Made In Canada ". As you can see out sourcing is nothing new.

[tgovebaker]

My answer is "no." But I buy a fair number of Weaver hoppers, all of which are made in the U.S., and which are price competitive with the foreign made products.

This is an interesting thread. I'm an economist by training so the comments are pretty compelling.

That $72 train from 1949 would cost over $550 today, simply based on inflation. Of course the modern technology -- whether its TMCC, DCS, or better graphics -- represents an additional gain, so all things being equal, today's train buyer is generally getting more for his or her money.

In a globalizing economy, some industries (and by extension, some individuals) will suffer, and others will prosper. The consumer is ultimately king, and although surveys consistently find that Americans don't like Wal-Mart's business practices, they still buy there consistently. Better prices do matter to millions of people.

The auto industry here has been through a miserable stretch, and my heart goes out to the non-management workers. Over the last decade, quality levels have risen dramatically, but management teams have continued to make poor decisions about product design, safety, and fuel efficiency. Not a good place to work.

I don't think there is really strong evidence that manufacturing is the key to a healthy economy. The fact that much of what we buy is manufacturered overseas is far from as important an issue as the low savings rates, high debt loads, trade imbalances and, most significantly, flat real wage growth for millions of Americans. Health insurance costs rise three times faster than inflation, essentially wiping out any real salary or wage increase.

Against this backdrop, who can afford to buy American just for the sake of patriotism?

[Anonymous]

It doesn't necessarily have to cost more - there's a lone surviving large-volume model train manufacturer still making their products in the UK (Dapol) - their prices are much the same as Hornby, who shipped production out to the far east a few years ago. Having production and managment close together enables them to offer short runs of paint schemes, change running numbers quickly, etc - the end result being a very "agile" business that can produce what the market wants in a short timeframe. Many shops have commissioned special edition models - usually a run of 500 or so - which can be taken from the design phase to completed models in a few weeks. The factory shop is also well worth a visit - any "seconds" or spares are sold through there, along with the full range.

What makes them of even more interest is that they are still using some of the old Hornby-Dublo SD6 plastic wagon tooling, which looks as sharp today as it did when first released 40 years ago!

[IRONROOSTER]

We are in a world economy. There are a lot of problems and glitches with uneven laws, standards of living, etc. But the key is to focus on what we do best. Technology is our edge and we need to exploit it - ramp up our education, our automated systems, etc. Trying to compete with low cost labor works only if we want to lower our standard of living. We may not like all the effects from Walmart, but most of us like the low prices. I'll pay more only if I am getting more.

I don't claim to be an expert on economics (but I have had the 400 class as well as 101 [:D] ), but one thing to remember is that we have to buy something from the folks overseas it they are going to have money to buy from us.
Enjoy
Paul

[danrunner]

I removed my previous post because the rhetoric is geting too heated.

There are a lot of smart people on this discussion board who don't need econ 101.