Lionel "Standard O" vs "Traditional"

[HopperSJ]

OK, just when I think I get a handle on gauges something screws me up. flipping through the Lionel 2006 catalogue I see that they have divided their steam, deisel, and rolling stock in to separate catagories called "Traditional" and "Standard O". Here are my assumptions about this revelation:

(Please chime in and correct me where I am in error)

1. Lionel's postwar and early modern era offerings were O gauge but not O scale. They were modeled after real trains but not made exactly to scale.

2. Other manufacturers began making O guage trains and many of them, like MTH and Atlas began making them to scale which made them slightly larger than Lionel's O gauge offereings.

3. Lionel, in order to keep up with the Jones's and maintain popularity with "serious" railroaders began selling their own scale engines/stock that met this "standard" in the industry.

4. Now Lionel sells 2 varieties of O gauge trains of slightly differing sizes which they call "Standard O" and "Traditional".

This could all be BS but I am trying to make sense of this revelation in the catalogue. Why have I not seem this differentiation anywhere else? Am I just such a newbie that I missed what was obvious, or is this a new distinction Lionel is highlighting?

Someone please clear away my ignorance...

[prewardude]

It is not a new distinction; Lionel began marketing "Standard O" trains in the '70s, I believe. You're correct about the different sizes, however. "Traditional-sized" trains are basically interpretations of the real thing (more or less), whereas "Standard O" trains are scale-detailed, scale-sized models of the real thing.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Clint

[jimhaleyscomet]

Standard O is as close to scale and in correct proportions as lionel can get (the couplers are still way too big).

"Traditional" is usually smaller and the the length reduction is sometimes more proportionaly than the width and height reduction.

See the first page of the new catalog for Lionel's explanation.
http://ca4.lionel-catalog.com/catalog8a2a.html

Jim H

[HopperSJ]

Thanks. At least I'm not completely lost. However, I don't recall seeing the distinction made on any boxes. Again, I could just have not noticed it, but how can you tell while you're standing in the store and looking at the box. I guess they would look slightly different sizes, but is that the only way to distingui***hem? how much different is the size?

[lionelsoni]

But Lionel did make occasional pieces fully to scale, like the 773 Hudsons, the Train Masters, and all the F3s.

[msacco]

the current catalog and maybe the last (I don't remember) has seen Lionel start to make a clearer distinction between Scale and traditonal. Headings on the top of the pages and these titles used in the table of contents start to create the distinction. I would like to see Lionel make it even clearer similiar to the way Mike has done with Railking and Premier Lines though. As a traditional-sized operator I almost would like to see a traditional only catalog.

Mike S.

Mike S.

[Roger Bielen]

I don't have a catalogue handy near the computer, but Lionel may have a different part/model numbering sequence for the Standard O.

[otftch]

It seems to me that Lionel is just doing what MTH has done.Premier and Railking ! In the fifties Lionel used "0" and "027".Its all in the wording. Lionel has always come off well with the word "STANDARD".
Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by otftch

It seems to me that Lionel is just doing what MTH has done.Premier and Railking ! In the fifties Lionel used "0" and "027".Its all in the wording. Lionel has always come off well with the word "STANDARD".
Ed

To a person not familiar with MTH jargon, what the devil are "Premier" and "Railking" supposed to tell you? To make matters more confusing, take 2 of the streamine passenger sets I own, neither being "scale": My MTH set is the correct height for "O", but the cars are only 15" long to run on tighter curves. My K-Line cars are O27/ shorter in height, but otherwise look more to scale, proportion-wise. Neither set "looks right" running with the "wrong size" engine, or parked next to each other, for that matter.
Freight cars are a bit more "forgiving" when it comes to mixing the O/O27. Joe

[HopperSJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roger Bielen

I don't have a catalogue handy near the computer, but Lionel may have a different part/model numbering sequence for the Standard O.

I checked out the catalogue last night and didn't see anything obvious about the numbering scheme. I may be missing it, but it don't see it. I guess it is not a real big deal, I just don't want to drop all this cash and then have my engines and cars look funny next to each other. I guess I'm anal...

[mickey4479]

I hope my comments help, but I may confuse you. It is best to contact a dealer or someone in your area with a few minutes to talk with you and show you the differences in person.
There is a great deal of inventory out in the 3 rail market. Atlas, Williams, Weaver, Lionel, MTH and others. My understanding, as has been previously expressed by others on this tread, is that Lionel "traditional" is not true O scale, that is 1/4 inch equals one foot. Traditional is also known as (0-27, semi scale and O Guage) while Lionel "Standard" is O scale, that is 1/4 inch equals a foot. MTH calls thier O sclae size Premier. I have dabbled in both. It probably looks a liitle better to have a little consistency in size when running trains in my humble opinion. But there are no rules here. So you could run the (Lionel 0-27, semi scale, O guage, or MTH railking) size rolling stock and locos together and run the (Lionel Standard, O Scale, or MTH Premier) together. CTT has numerous pictorial contributors that mix Standard Guage, O Scale and Traditional trains on the same layout. If you want to mix and match, go for it, its your layout. I have enjoyed this hobby so much. I am sure you will as well. Its fun to learn from the pros (certainly not me) on this forum. Good luck.

[Chris F]

1. Lionel's postwar and early modern era offerings were O gauge but not O scale. They were modeled after real trains but not made exactly to scale.

As Bob Nelson noted, large Hudsons, F3's, and FM Trainmasters are generally considered scale-sized. I would add NW2's to that list. Conversely, 44-tonners and 4-4-0 Generals were oversized (scale versions of these small locos would be too small for the motor to fit). I'm not aware of any postwar, scale-sized rolling stock.

Lionel introduced Standard O boxcars and refrigerator cars in 1973. They weren't very popular due to scarcity of scale engines and other rolling stock. However, they became more popular in the mid-80's, and other Standard O rolling stock (gondolas, flatcars, hoppers, woodside cabooses, amd tank cars) became available.

2. Other manufacturers began making O guage trains and many of them, like MTH and Atlas began making them to scale which made them slightly larger than Lionel's O gauge offereings.

Weaver started offering O gauge scale products in 1980. I think these were brass.
Mike Wolf (MTH founder) contracted with Lionel in 1987 to produce tinplate trains. He also produced some scale-sized steamers for Lionel in the late 80's/early 90's.
After the MTH/Lionel agreement was terminated in 1993, MTH started producing scale-sized locomotives ("Premier Line").
MTH introduced the RailKing line in 1995 to offer locos and rolling stock that could run on O-27 track. The line later included "near-scale" items that would run on small-diameter track but still had propotions close to scale. Although I haven't seen them, it's my understanding that the RailKing line now includes some items that were made from older tooling used with earlier Premier Line products.
Atlas started producing O-gauge locos and rolling stock in 1997.

The point of this "history lesson" is that Lionel's production of scale-sized locos and rolling stock does not coincide directly with that of its competitors.

3. Lionel, in order to keep up with the Jones's and maintain popularity with "serious" railroaders began selling their own scale engines/stock that met this "standard" in the industry.

MTH's introduction of an amazing number of scale-sized and scale-detailed products caused Lionel to ramp-up their production of similar items. This competition started what many consider the second "Golden Age" of O-gauge trains, with a huge selection of both scale-sized and traditional items to choose from. Although Atlas and Weaver offer fine products, their production volumes are significantly smaller.

4. Now Lionel sells 2 varieties of O gauge trains of slightly differing sizes which they call "Standard O" and "Traditional".

Don't forget "LionMaster", which is Lionel's term for large locomotives intended for use with Traditional rolling stock. I haven't used the term O-scale, which generally is reserved for use for scale items running on 2-rail O-gauge track. A comparable term for scale items running on 3-rail O-gauge track is Hi-rail.

Housecleaning: Lionel added the explanation of Standard O vs. Traditional in their 2004 V.2 catalog. The separation between Standard O and Traditional rolling stock started with the 2002 V.1 catalog. These changes represent Lionel's attempt to help customers match locos and rolling stock of similar sizes. At least it's a start!

Here's how I look at it -
Standard O, Premier, and scale-sized units are designed to 1:48 scale, regardless of required track diameter. Some scale-sized units will run on O-27 track, while others require a minimum O-72 curve. You can purchase them with some assurance they will look right together.
Traditional, RailKing, and O-27 items are designed to run on a (small) track diameter, regardless of scale proportions. Think of them as "non-scale". There is no assurance that non-scale units will look good together, tho' most will. Mixing scale-sized and non-scale rolling stock together in one consist generally does not look good, but there are a number of non-scale locos that look fine with scale rolling stock.

There is no clear-cut way to determine rolling stock type by catalog number. Lionel catalogs are available online ( http://www.lionel.com/Products/Findex.cfm ). Greenberg's pocket price guide includes the term "Std. O" in its listings of rolling stock where applicable. Search this website for Kalmbach Book's Greenberg's Guides (often available on Amazon, too). Use the information from these publications before or during your visit to a hobby shop, train show, or internet site. Above all, avoid impulse buying before you have done your research!

[Anonymous]

Just to clarify - Lionel started making "O" scale stuff in 1937 when the 700E Hudson came out. There's also the B6 switcher and scale freight consists from the 36-42 era. There's probably been some degree of confusion ever since and there are no hard and fast rules to guide you, just careful study of reference materials and perhaps direct observation of the pieces in question.

I think the current Lionel catalog copy distinction between "Traditional" and "Standard O" make things very clear. When you venture out on to ebay and the secondary market things get trickier.

The MTH distinctions have gotten less clear now that many of the Railking pieces are scale. But the scale items are pretty well marked as such.

It's also useful to note that some things that are "Traditional" are actually much larger than scale! Like a PW "44-tonner" and the 154 crossing, for example. Also the term "027" has been used to denote "traditional" sized items.

Good luck and have fun!

Old 2037

[lionelsoni]

I have done quite a bit of modification to get Railking pieces to run on O27. Here's what the MTH web site says: "Most RailKing models can maneuver a circle with a 31-inch diameter, and some can operate on curves even smaller than that."