Williams engines

[dwiemer]

High all,
I just wanted to post both information and a little tidbit about the Williams engines. At the train show today, I spoke with Bill Hollash. The Williams GG1 that several of us bought will not be delivered for a few more months. Secondly, it seems that Williams engines, with the dual motors are wired in parallel. If you rewire it for series, it has a much smoother and slow start and builds up speed more prototypical. They do not have any loss of power do to this and no additional wear on the engine. Bill told me that he spoke with Williams and that this will Not affect warranty. I plan to do this on the GG1, and probably any other Williams engine I aquire. Hope this is usefull for some.
Dennis

[rlplionel]

Interesting info, Dennis. I'm sure Williams operators will appreciate the tip on parallel vs. series wiring.

Robert
http://home.surewest.net/rlplionel/Robert.htm

[ADCX Rob]

I've done this modification to about half of my Williams & half of my K-Line dual motor diesels. A DPDT switch wired in & mounted inconspicuously will let you select "high" or "low" range. Years after I started doing this, I noticed some of the newer K-Line engines came with this switch from the factory - on the bottom - next to the direction lock-out switch.

Rob

[iguanaman3]

"They do not have any loss of power"

It does cut the motor voltage in half, reducing top speed. I rewired an early K-line GP-38 and it works great. The lights are much brighter now and slow speeds are smoother. I can also run my ZW flat out without derailing..Id'e say it tops out at 50 SMPH.

Neil

[dwiemer]

Neil,
The "loss of power" that was quoted in the original post was referring to the amount of cars pulled, not the top speed. I have yet to do this, but I think Bill Hollash knows what he is talking about. Anyway, l am glad to hear you have good results.
Dennis

[4kitties]

I've done this with K-Line and Weaver diesels. This mod not only brightens the headlights and cuts the top speed, it also dramatically improves smoke output. In fact that's why I modified my K-Line Trainmaster, because the smoke was nil at the running speeds I normally use.

Joel

[FJ and G]

Here's the procedure, as explained by Ed. M, long ago...

"Here are some generic guidelines. It'll take someone with more experience than I to give model-specific instructions.
This procedure involves opening the loco shell, tracing wires, cutting wires, stripping insulation, splicing wires, and insulating the resulting joints. If you can wire a layout you can probably make this mod, but don't attempt it if you're not comfortable with these basic steps.
1) Remove shell.
2) Identify motors... there should be two identical ones. (If they're NOT identical, don't wire them in series.)
3) Each motor will have two wires going to it. They will probably be two different colors. For discussion purposes, let's call them "yellow" and "blue". (Substitute your own colors if different.) (If your motors have more than two wires connected to the motor terminals, they are not typical permanent-magnet-DC, a.k.a. "can" motors. Don't wire them in series.)
4) Trace the wires back to the reverse or control circuit board. Ordinarily the motors are wired in parallel with opposite polarity, since the trucks face opposite directions. Thus you will see one blue and one yellow wire go to each of two terminals on the circuit board.
5) Choose one wire coming from each of the two terminals... either two blue wires, or two yellow wires. Cut these wires and splice them together.
Some fine print here for this step:
A) cut and splice at a point which does not affect the wires' ability to move, so the motors are still free to turn with the trucks;
B) cut far enough from the reverse or control circuit board to leave enough wire remaining, to allow eventual re-splicing in the original configuration, in case you ever decide to go back to parallel motor wiring;
C) splice by stripping and soldering, or by using small wire nuts, or by other method of your choice. If you solder, insulate using heat-shrink tubing available from Radio Shack;
D) also be sure to insulate the cut wire ends left connected to the reverse or control circuit board.
6) Connect power supply (transformer) and with loco off track, verify that both trucks' wheels spin in the same direction.
7) Secure all wiring and re-install loco shell.
That's it! Your motors are now wired in series. Your loco will now go about half as fast for any given track voltage, and will respond half as much to the speed variations and other effects caused by track and wiring and transformer resistance. (The effect of this second point is much better speed stability around curves and up and down grades, which to me is the principal benefit of the modification.)
Have fun... be careful. I can't be responsible for any damage caused, but I'll try to help anyone through the process who has questions. You other electrical guys, check me on this and let me know if I said anything dumb or left anything out.
regards,
Ed M"

[lionelsoni]

Actually, it is possible to wire traditional universal motors in series. I have done it for a pair of NW2 switchers with good results. The trick is to wire the armatures in series with each other and, separately, the field windings in series with each other. Since one end of the field is usually grounded to the frame, it is necessary to undo that connection on one of the motors.

When rewiring any motors in series, you should be aware that the e-unit coil, smoke generator, headlight, etc., will see twice the voltage that they would have at the same speed before rewiring. This can be good if they needed more voltage anyway, but bad if they get too much at your normal operating speed.

[FJ and G]

Thanks, Bob, for adding to that.

A personal observation. Using a Z750 pak, I've been able to start all 3 of my Williams fairly slowly and keep them running slowly at around 5 or 6 smph without jerkiness. At that speed, the only problem detectible is that the bell and whistle don't come on. Since I prefer slower operations, the series wiring would interest me, but that project would be much farther down the line, as my Williams already run fairly slow for my purposes.

Interestingly, some of my friends who own ZWs and the big MTH equivalents, cannot seem to get their Williams locomotives to run as slowly as mine. I'm not sure why that's so.

Perhaps a more immediate project will be to replace the thick handrails with wire rails, which, incidentally, the Williams SD45 comes with.

Also, I wi***he locos started in neutral, but I also understand there are fixes for that as well.

[Anonymous]

Was very interested in the rewiring of the Williams engines as I am the proud owner of a Williams scale GG-1. Tried the procedure this morning and when I applied power got a neutral condition, no forward or reverse. So, I tried the other ends coming from the circuit board and got the same results. I know I am doing something wrong can anyone enlighten me as I think this should give me much brighter lights on my K-Line passenger cars as well.

[lionelsoni]

The procedure that Dave Vergun gave above seems to assume that the "blue" and "yellow" wires are keyed to the motor polarity, not to the source polarity. It is true that one motor will run forward while the other runs backward, I think it is more likely that this reversal would be done by swapping the blue and yellow wires at the motor, not at the source. Otherwise, there would be a blue and a yellow wire connected to each of the two source terminals.

I have rewritten this posting from here on, at James's request, to try to make it simpler and clearer:

I assume that there are 4 wires coming out of some sort of circuit board, two of them going to one motor and two to the other. I am also assuming that these wires have two colors, which I am going to call "blue" and "yellow" (even though they may be some other two actual colors). I am also assuming that each motor is connected to a blue and a yellow wire and that both blue wires are connected together at the circuit board and that both yellow wires are also connected together at the circuit board. I am going to add another wire to the circuit. It will have a third color, which I am going to call "green" (even though it may be some other actual color) If these assumptions are not all true, then all bets are off.

Disconnect a blue wire from one motor and a yellow wire from the other motor. Do not use these disconnected wires. Cut them off or unsolder them from the board or, better, tape their ends so you can put them back if you change your mind. Then use the green wire to connect between the two motor terminals that have no wires on them.

[FJ and G]

thanks Bob, I'll update my notes...

[jakeoregano]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ADCX Rob

I've done this modification to about half of my Williams & half of my K-Line dual motor diesels. A DPDT switch wired in & mounted inconspicuously will let you select "high" or "low" range. Years after I started doing this, I noticed some of the newer K-Line engines came with this switch from the factory - on the bottom - next to the direction lock-out switch.

Rob

Rob, I would be interested in how you would go about wiring the switch in the circuit. And for my clarification, you are saying that the switch allows to change between series and parallel? Is that right?

Thanks,
Dwayne.

[nitroboy]

WOW!!! This little trick works great!!! I did my NW-2 Norfolk Southern switcher and my Virginian Rectifier and they run SUPER SMOOTH at low speed.

[Anonymous]

I have also wired the motors in series and installed a DPDT switch so you can switch back and forth. I stopped using the switch because I rarely use the parallel setting. MTH Proto 1 engines can also be wired in series with the same results.

Besides series wiring I have used the diode dropping method using paired 3 or 6 amp diodes in the motor circuit and leaving the motors in parallel. 10 paired voltage (5 in each direction) between the reverse boards and the motors will drop votage to each motor by 3 and half volts. You can wire the lights across the diode dropping array and receive a constant 3 volts for the lights. You can replace the stock bulbs with 3 volt bulbs and obtain constant voltage lighting. You can also use LEDs which would give you directional lighting if desired.

You can also use this method also on Lionel postwar diesels and get constant voltage lighting.

Dale Hz

[lionelsoni]

I got this today from James:

"Just finished taking the GG-1 apart again and here's the breakdown on the circuit board wiring. Ther are two plugs that each has a red wire to center rail pick-up and the headlight. A black that goes to ground and the headlight, yellow to the motor and finally a blue to the motor."

As I understand this, each motor is connected to the circuit board through a separate connector. If possible, you should verify that the blue wire from one connector gets connected to the blue from the other somewhere on the board, and likewise for the yellow. If you can't tell, you can take a chance that they are and go ahead if you like, following the instructions above. Perhaps someone who has examined this circuit arrangement can help us out here. (Dale did, in the next posting. The wires are connected as expected.)

Dwayne, that's what the switch does. Note that one terminal on each motor is always wired the same; so it doesn't need any connection to the switch. The other terminal on each motor is connected either to its original wire or to the "green" wire. So, with the motor terminals connected to the commons of the DPDT switch, the switch can make those connection changes:

motor terminal that originally had blue wire
. . . . . .|
blue-----O O O
. . . . DPDT |
yellow---O O O
. . . . . .|
motor terminal that originally had yellow wire

(Try to ignore the dots.)

[Anonymous]

On the newer Williams boards the blue and yellow wires go to plugs, on the older boards they are soldered in. In any case they go to a common terminals in the board. On the plug type you can pull the wires carefully out of the plugs.I just remove opposite colors from the board and hook them together. I then test the motors making sure they spin in the proper direction and that the loco starts in forward. If this is the case then I solder the wires together and shrinkwrap them. If not I reconnect and try different wires. The DPDT switch route is a bit more complicated. As I recall one of the switch terminals is not used.

Dale Hz

[lionelsoni]

Thanks, Dale. That answers the question about the wires' being connected together.

If nothing else is disturbed, I think the motor directions will come out right.

It is of course possible to wire the DPDT so that one terminal is not used; but I thought that the symmetrical arrangement would be easier to understand.

[Anonymous]

Thank you Bob for all your imformative posts. I really learn a lot when reading them.

Dale Hz

[lionelsoni]

You're welcome!

[dwiemer]

It is great that all this information is coming out. When I first posted the "fix" as described to me by Bill, I thought I would finally contribute to this board, instead, it just started a great discussion that perhaps will get more of us into taking off the covers of our engines and tweaking our motive power. Thanks for all the contributions.
Dennis

[FJ and G]

guess I'll save this whole thread!

I still have to finish adding new handrails to my williams before doing the conversion; might add cruise control but remote control to operate outside would be even better, if not a bit pricey at $300 a whack!

[brianel027]

"Interestingly, some of my friends who own ZWs and the big MTH equivalents, cannot seem to get their Williams locomotives to run as slowly as mine. I'm not sure why that's so."

Dave, that's because those big transformers (and many other postwar kinds) start with a minimum of 6 or 8 volts to the track. I know my locos can run fast, but I have always used what I think is the best transformer Lionel EVER made, the ol' reliable 1033. By using the B-U setting on the 1033, you're putting 0-11 volts to the track... a perfect voltage range for the modern DC can motored engines. I never found the need to make the "series" modification using the 1033.

Of course, now I run with rectified DC current to the track (still using my 1033) and find that my locos run even better, but sometimes this means removing the circuit board reverse unit. But that's okay, because the operating improvement (smoother speed, less "growl" noise) is well worth that effort.

Of course, if you are putting less voltage to the track, and running locos slower it makes sense to alter the voltage of the lights inside locos and cars too. Most trains come with 14v-18v light bulbs which is why they are so dim at lower operating voltages. I change the bulbs to a 5v-8v range and have much better results... sometimes this means changing the fixture socket to a mini-snap in so I can use lower voltage mini CHRISTmas light bulbs. Try running a powtwar or even current made Lionel flashing toxic waste car with lower voltage DC motored locos and you hardly get any flashing effect. Change the lights on the toxic waste car to a lower voltage bulb and you are in flashing action!

[FJ and G]

thanks, Brian for your usual insightful and very helpful feedback.

hmmmm. Christmas lights...got me thinkin now (friend threw his away and now I have several hundred--already used them to light up my 12-foot long train shed)

And the info on the transformers is interesting. I can get my Williams to crawl pretty slowly with the Z750; that's why the series mod will have to wait!

[brianel027]

Dave, just for your additional info, years ago when Woolworth's went under (Ithaca, NY had one of the last premiere Woolworth's stores) I bought a load of short 15 or 20 count lighting chains. These sets used 6 volt bulbs, which I find are perfect.

Usually at the onset of the commercial holiday season, you see those boxes full of replacement sets of mini-bulbs. Most are the 2.5-3.5 volt range, but there are usually a few sets of 5-7volt bulbs and 12volt bulbs. So I stock up then.

It's not too difficult to cut and splice a lighting fixure from a bayonet or screw type to the snap-in mini-bulb type like those on CHRISTmas light sets. The modern Lionel cars and locos already use a mini-snap-in assembly but I find you sometimes have to pull the bulb out of their white bulb base fixture and replace it with the new lower voltage bulb.

As another side note, years ago I bought several sets of these lights that had round shaped mini-bulbs. These work super as replacements for the #70 Lionel dual floodlights... I prefer these bulbs to the ones Lionel includes. The round mini-bulbs also work great for cobbing or making your own street lights using a green painted post made from aluminum or styreme and the green mini-fixture partially protruding at the top.

Oh yeah, this doesn't really have much to do with Williams locos. Hey, Williams is A-OK in my book. Other than RMT, no one else makes reasonably priced non-command traditionally sized locos in modern roads other than PRR and NYC!!!

As a side note, I see though MTH cancelled production of several of the beautiful horn-only Rugged Rails SD90MACS (I think the best proportioned of all the smaller modern MTH Railking locos), the Norfolk Southern version is still on schedule to be released in February.

[FJ and G]

Brian,

I think we've got enough for a post here so I'll transfer data...

[dwiemer]

Dave,
Keep us informed on the progress on your engine. I am thinking of picking up a few Williams engines and converting them too. I may need some advice when I get them. Thanks,
Dennis

[FJ and G]

Bob (or anyone else). My Williams locomotive has more than 2 wires coming from each motor. You indicated that more than 2 wires might mean it is a different kind of motor? How would one wire for series such a locomotive? Or, where would one put the 3 diodes and in what direction would they be facing?

Being an electronics ignoramus, I took apart my Williams SD-45 and diagrammed the wiring to the motors, trucks, bulbs, circuit and speaker, using color codings for the colors of wires. Thus for the first wire listed below, Y1A,B, translates to Yellow1A, which goes from motor 1 and then stops at the circuit (Y1A) and then continues on to motor 2, where I designated the wire as Y1B.

Y1A,B top of motor 1 to circuit to top of motor 2

Blue2A,B top of motor 1 to circuit to top of motor 2

R3 motor 1 to bulb 1

B4 bulb 1 to truck 1

R5A,B truck 1 to circuit to truck 2

B6 truck 2 to bulb 2

R7 bulb 2 to bottom motor 2

B8A,B bottom motor 2 to circuit to bottom motor 1

Y9,10 circuit to speaker

[ADCX Rob]

FJ and G

Bob (or anyone else). My Williams locomotive has more than 2 wires coming from each motor. You indicated that more than 2 wires might mean it is a different kind of motor? How would one wire for series such a locomotive?

For your purpose of wiring the motors in series, you need only be concerned with the motor wires at the top - yellow & blue:

Cut and tape off the wires to one motor.

Wire as above(green wire as supplied by you).

Done