Wind-up locomotives

[FJ and G]

thanks, Matt

[Anonymous]

Ok, just measured the flanges, they come out at just under 3mm which is approx 0.119in according to the micrometer (it's one of those ones with the digital readout and a "MM/in" conversion button). Back to back gauge is 29.5mm and the flanges are 2.14mm thick.

I'm not old enough to remember windup watches in common use, but I have a couple of them - one's the type that has to be wound daily while the other has one of those self-winding mechanisms. Both are Vostoks, made in the former USSR and bought through ebay for under £30 - not bad for something that never needs batteries!

[tintrax]

Sorry Matt, I am a long way away - In New Zealand! So I can`t show you my live steam in operation. Unless you come here! In fact in the next month I am expecting two USA toy train fans to call & see me
. On the subject of clockwork power there was a difference between the USA & Europe. Virtually all clockwork in the USA from after WW1 was regarded as being for small boys and was cheap. In Europe certainly there were many cheap types made, but .also high quality locos at higher prices. Mechanisms for these were fine pieces of engineering.

[FJ and G]

Matt,

Rather hard to measure the flange depth with my calipers, as the wheels are fast-angled, but I believe it came out to something close to 148/1000 for modern toy train wheels; thereby leaving very little spike clearance.

Tintrax,

If you're on the East Coast, I'd love to see a steam-up. Indoors....hmmmm. Cold steam? (cold steam has been done 50 years ago using electricity as the power supply).

Reg. clockwork, 125 ft would be perrfect! Hornby at 220 is pretty phenominal. One fellow scratchbuilt a clockwork fuel gauge that indicated precisely how much torque was available.

Very innovative.

Eventually, I'd like to convert all of my locomotives to r/c and possibly steam or diesel power. But that will be a looong way off.

Reg. clockwork, are any of you old enough to recall watches that you needed to wind up every couple of days? Hmmmmm.

[tintrax]

Live steam has been mentioned above. I have run live steam on 0 gauge indoor tracks twice in the last week. I have eight live steam locos, of varying sizes. The one I ran yesterday was a Bowman - a big loco. Although it has no throttle it runs very well & safely, hauling a good load at fast speed, for half an hour non-stop. My track is about 080 (runs outside 072 track) so that helps. All my steam locos are quite safe if handled properly.
Clockwork, I find that about 125 feet running distance for Marx etc is usual. Best I have is a Hornby over 70 years old that runs 220 feet. Clockworks should not fly off the track at curves, even if fully wound, provided the governor is working OK. Modern Hachette don`t have governors and are useless but look nice!

[FJ and G]

Thanks, Matt, a micrometer would do the trick. I'll then compare w/my own micrometer readings (which I don't have at the moment)

[Anonymous]

Ah - tricky question! I only have one Lionel car (an old 6034 that I bought with the intention of restoring, but owing to having a damaged plastic bodyshell it'll either end up as a chassis/truck donor or recieve a major repair job involving a lot of filler and a respray) - Lionel equipment appears very rarely on ebay UK and is hardly ever seen in stores here. Compared to that the flanges on the Hachette stock may be a little deeper - I do know that if I put it on Peco "scale" track it hits the rail chairs. I can run a micrometer over the loco and measure the flanges if that'd be helpful?

[FJ and G]

O gauge toy train (tinplate-style) live steam locomotives, Doug, have been around since the turn of the last century and are today popular amongst garden railroaderrs in the U.S. A one-page article features them in the latest (or previous?) garden RR magazine (CTT's sister mag).

These tinplates used alcohol and some used another fluid, which escapes me. I wouldn't recommend using them indoors, baberuth. Many of these tinplate steamers were quite colorful but over time, boiler "explosions" (said tongue-in-cheek).

Many of these locomotives are still in use today, and I plan to investigate this further and duly report my findings.

Apparently, these tinplate things are affordable.

Brit,

When you say those are compatible with your Lionel flanges, are you running modern Lionel or old Lionel? My understanding is that many older Lionel trains had deeper flanges.

[Anonymous]

I remember hearing about a small live steam locomotive that was designed to run on alcohol. The manufacturer neglected to incorporate a throttle in the design and a number of house fires resulted when the loco built up sufficient speed to derail.

[Anonymous]

The flanges on mine are about the same depth as Lionel O equipment - the track issued with the magazines was tubular rail (with banked curves - just as Hornby offered originally!). I've not been able to test the length of run due to not possessing any track beyond the piece in the photo - keeping an eye on ebay for a lot of cheap Hornby track to suit it (ovals of track in good condition pop up regularly for under £20, I've even seen mint boxed turntables go for £10 or so). As far as sourcing one is concerned, they do appear on ebay sometimes though you'd probably have to arrange shipping from France as there seem to be very few that have made it overseas.

I think Basset-Lowke amongst others offered live steam in O - these would have been the imported brass of their era, priced higher than the monthly take-home pay of many people. Surviving examples are highly prized as so few were made, and even fewer have survived. Running qualities were apparently not great though!

[cnw1995]

Really? Live-steam in O gauge - I dimmly recall reading hobby history books that show something like that among the cast-iron pull toys. The Hobbytowne USA in our town is really an R/C shop and I'm intrigued by the model railroading applications for many of the items from the world of R/C cars and planes. Live steam would be nifty - esp. on your outdoor layout.

[FJ and G]

OH, btw, 1 more VERY important question.

I'm using code 148 rail and my modern toy train flanges BARELY clear the spikes.

Are windup train flanges DEEPER?

Much thanks, Dave

[FJ and G]

Thanks Doug,

I'm having trouble believing the prices are THAT low. Wish I knew someone who had a windup they can vouch for before diving in.

The windups would certainly have a place on my pike when I get too lazy to clean the track.

In the future, I will also be angling for live steam and remote control.

Unfortunately CTT doesn't really advertise or promote live steam or r/c. BTW, did you know that there are old toy train live steam engines out there (but I digress from the topic)

[cnw1995]

A neat source for wind-ups - both Hafner and Marx is http://trainmarket.com - I just share this as a satisfied customer... I would love to get another one of these.

[FJ and G]

Very interesting photos and nice photos from Matt and Paul. Wish CTT had ads for these. I'd consider purchasing one. I'd want one to go at least 100 feet on relatively level track. I know they were (are?) popular in the UK where operators have become so proficient that the trains stop exactly at the station where they're rewound.

[Anonymous]

Try this one: A clockwork-powered model of an electric loco! The prototype was a 4-axle electric though the model only has 2 axles.



A bit of history - this is a reproduction made for the Hachette publishing group of a Hornby tinplate loco of the 1950's. Hornby offered two versions, a basic clockwork one like this and a more advanced 3-rail electric version with proper trucks rather than the rigid 4-wheel drive unit. Within the last three-four years Hachette offered a series of repro Hornby models with a magazine partwork - the idea being that you could collect the whole series and have a sizable collection of tinplate locos and cars, together with some scenery and track. I also have three passenger cars and a tanker from this range. The tanker was bought while holidaying in France a couple of years ago, the loco and passenger cars were sourced later on from a store this side of the channel that had somehow obtained some (the series was only offered in France, and they won't ship back issues outside their own borders). That said, they do pop up on ebay from time to time and are well worth a look. Cover price on the magazines was about €10 - not bad value!

[Dave Farquhar]

I have an early American Flyer windup that's missing a wheel. If I can ever find a replacement (nobody makes repros), it just might run. In the meantime it's on a shelf in the den with a couple of other vintage tinplate pieces.

I also have some Marx windups, a 591 and a Commodore Vanderbilt. I got them off Ebay, mostly because I liked the cars that were listed with them. Neither ran when I got them, but they ran fine after I oiled them. I suspect if I got some good grease and really worked at it, I could get them to run a bit longer. I run them on the layout every once in a while.

I heard once about people who build large windup layouts and they learn how to do operations with it, learning by trial and error how much to wind the train to get it to stop at a particular station. It certainly adds a different dimension to the hobby, and a nice challenge. I think it's a cool idea.

[Anonymous]

I have 3 Ives (#5, #17 & #19) locomotives and some cars. All were made about 80 years ago. Ives made several wind-ups. Most of them were 0 guage and representatives of steam, but they also made 3 versions of the NYC S-motor electric. Ives also made some LARGE wind-ups in 1-guage (the #40 #41). I think their best wind-up was the #25. It has a 4-4-0 wheel arrangement and can pull a nice set of cars. Some of their wind-ups could also, at the flip of a lever, to in reverse.

My collection needs some work. The #5 has a gear that is wore out so the spring's power doen't make it to the drive wheels. The #17 works well, but doesn't have enough umph to move itself on track. Hey, not bad. I hope I have as few issues when I reach 80. The #19 was restored, but the idiot put a gear in the wrong place so there is no way for the drive wheels to get engaged. It looks like new, but runs like $#%!

All in all I think if you look at the Ives line of wind-ups you'll be impressed with their looks and function. I also think their cars rival anything Lionel was making at the time. Just my [2c]

[Anonymous]

I just sold a Marx New York Central wind up on ebay. Bought it on ebay a year ago, with the intent of starting a Marx collection. It was a great little runner in need of paint. I just didn't have to time to mess with it. Nothing says "Toy Train" like a Marx wind-up.
Greg

[pbjwilson]

Wound to tight -

[Anonymous]

I have a great many wind-up locomotives in my collection, including Hafner, Joy Line, Hornby, Bub, Distler, Brimtoy, Marx and a number of other manufacturers. As mersenne6 says, how well they perform really varies dramatically. I think that much of this has to do with how much they were used to begin with. The more they've been used, the weaker the spring. An important thing to remember if buying wind-up engines for operating is that just because the wheels spin when you hold them and wind them up that does not mean that they will actually run on track. Many times the motor still has enough strength left in it to run, but when placed on the track, doesn't have enough umph to actually propel itself forward. For that reason, you should always be wary of anyone selling a "working" wind-up engine on ebay or anywhere else. Whenever I buy a wind-up engine, I always do so assuming that it doesn't work. If it does, it's a pleasant surprise. If not, no big deal. I'm really much more of a collector than an operator and (as fun as they are) seldom use my wind-ups.

There's a certain knack you need for operating them that consists of a lot of trial and error. Wind it up too much and it will instantly fly off the track when it hits a curve! Wind it up too little and it won't have the power to pull all the cars. Whenever running wind-up trains, you gradually have to take cars off to keep it going as the spring winds down. While most of these trains had track with extremely sharp curves, wider curves are much better for running them on. The amazing thing about running wind-up trains is that, unlike electric trains where you control the speed, etc., the train is going all by itself and seems to be alive with a mind of its own!

[mersenne6]

I too have a number of wind ups and I run them. None of mine have what I would call a fragile system. They are all made of heavy side stampings and substantial springs. What I have found, and I don't know why, is a a lot of variation from engine to engine with respect to motor strength - even within the same engine type.

If the motor is strong and all friction surfaces are well oiled (particularly the wheels and shafts of the cars being pulled) the train will run for several minutes before needing another winding. Most of my clockwork trains are AF but I do have a couple of Ives and one Fandor.

[Anonymous]

How long will they run before needing to be rewound? Are the mechanisms fragile?

[pbjwilson]

I collect wind-ups made by Hafner. Alot of fun to play with, but mainly I like the graphics.

[MadMarx]

I bet it's great exercise for the wrists! We all know we could use a little more of that ! lol

[Anonymous]

I have "fallen in love" with 2, which I bought. A "Joy Line" cast metal loco and litho "tin" passenger cars bought 20 years ago, and a Hornby loco and 1 passenger car from about 1949, bought 2 months ago. I keep an eye out for them, but don't plan on starting a collection, mainly due to limited funds. Joe

[Anonymous]

I see a good many wind-up locomotives on ebay, especially under the Marx "O" heading. I've never owned one, not even when I was a kid. Do any of you collect them or operate them on a layout?