American Flyer Vs Lionel

[jimhaleyscomet]

Could someone point me to a summary of the similarities and differences between American Flyer and Lionel? All I know so far is that American Flyer is 2 rail and Lionel is 3 rail. Is American flyer A/C? Does it have the same reverse switching electrical issues as HO? Will American Flyer accessories work with an O27 layout? Are they the same guage (are the cars interchangeable)?

Jim H

[lionelsoni]

Both brands will run on AC or DC, but have generally been run on AC for most of the last century. American Flyer does have a reversing problem similar to that in 2-rail DC HO. However, since the motors are universal, to run on AC or DC, the train is insensitive to the track polarity. So it is possible to swap the connections to the rails that the train is on without causing a reversal, as would happen with HO. If done quickly, this will not be noticeable in the train's motion. Pretty much all the American Flyer accessories that do not involve special cars will work with Lionel. Since World War II, the gauge has been different. Before the war, both were O gauge, 1 1/4 inches; but American Flyer was made to a 1/64 scale, Lionel to 1/48 (except when it wasn't). After the war, American Flyer kept the 1/64 scale, dropped the center rail, and narrowed the track to 7/8 inch.

[Dr. John]

One of the differences in the early post war era (besides 2-rail v. 3-rail) was in the couplers. Lionel went to a more realistic, reliable knuckle coupler while Flyer stayed with an ungainly hook coupler. AF eventually went to a knuckle coupler, but by then, Lionel had such a huge market share that AF was on a downhill slide. Flyer's quality became poorer into the late 50s until their demise in the mid 60s. Today, you can buy excellent quality AF trains (at a premium price!) from Lionel. They have reintroduced a lot of the old AF accessories as well, which, imho, really look and work well with O-27 layouts.

[spankybird]

BTW - very early AF was 3 rail

[Poppa_Zit]

>>One of the differences in the early post war era (besides 2-rail v. 3-rail) was in the couplers. Lionel went to a more realistic, reliable knuckle coupler while Flyer stayed with an ungainly hook coupler. AF eventually went to a knuckle coupler, but by then, Lionel had such a huge market share that AF was on a downhill slide. Flyer's quality became poorer into the late 50s until their demise in the mid 60s.<<

To surmise that American Flyer succumbed to Lionel due to a late adoption of the knuckle-coupler is incorrect. Flyer rolled out the knuckle in 1952. It went out of business by declaring bankruptcy in 1967 and was bought by Lionel, which never had a "huge market share" itself at that time because a year later, Lionel declared bankruptcy, too. The reason Lionel stayed strong through the 1970s through today is because Lionel owned the rights to produce American Flyer, and did nothing with them. You can't buy or sell something that isn't available. When they finally did rekindle American Flyer in 1979, the meager offerings (a handful of cars each year) were nowhere near the same availability as Lionel -- so it's silly to compare the two.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by puttlagger
[
To surmise that American Flyer succumbed to Lionel due to a late adoption of the knuckle-coupler is incorrect. Flyer rolled out the knuckle in 1952.

Since 1945-53 were the "big" years for toy train sales, AF did loose ground in this area. Not having a whistle(due to a Lionel lawsuit) also hurt. That being said, all of my postwar AF have link couplers. I sort of like them since it's the AF my best friend had when we were kids. The big AF plus was the Choo-choo sound. The "scale" aspect was pretty much lost on kids. Joe

[Dr. John]

I probably was not clear in my post about Lionel in AF. I did not mean that the link coupler caused AF's demise. It is a relevant difference (which is the point of this post) between the two. Lionel had superior marketing to AF, not necessarily a superior product. The fact that Lionel did survive the decline of toy trains in the late 50s through 60s was because they had the greater market share, name recognition, and were eventually purchased by MPC. The surge in nostalgia from Baby Boomers rediscovering trains in the 80s and early 90s helped the overall toy train market. We are probably on the downhill side of that resurgence.

To suggest that the reason Lionel survived is that they bought the rights to AF and did nothing with them for years is silly. The original AF was already history. Sure, it would be great if Lionel produced more, but at least they have brought back some of the AF line.

[phillyreading]

One important differance with AF is with the switches, the ones made by AF have a power selector switch on the top side of the switch(two train or regular) and makes it more tricky to wire a siding using the original AF two rail switch.
There is one other company that makes AF compatable cars(watch the overhang on cabooses) and that is K-Line.
Lee F. in south FL

[Poppa_Zit]

>Not having a whistle (due to a Lionel lawsuit) also hurt.<

The "lawsuit" over the whistle in the tender of the American Flyer 314AW in 1949-50 is an urban legend. Lawsuits leave a paper trail, and none exists. As a writer, I have researched this extensively. Plus, in an interview with Peter Jugle, former Gilbert Co. executive Maury Romer said there never was a lawsuit or even the threat of a lawsuit.

It is a well-circulated rumor that once made its way into a poorly-researched book about American Flyer, and has been "borrowed" and parrotted by just about every Flyer history book since. The truth is that the whistle was poorly designed and hard to get to in the tightly-packed tender, and thanks to a rush of complaints from its service centers, Gilbert Co. simply stopped manufacturing it.

[Poppa_Zit]

>>To suggest that the reason Lionel survived is that they bought the rights to AF and did nothing with them for years is silly. The original AF was already history.<<

I don't think my statement was silly -- not at all. In acquiring the competition, rendering it inactive and therefore eliminating it, Lionel became the only realistic option in toy trains until the late 1980s-early 1990s. Like Flyer, Marx was effectively gone in the late 1960s, as were any others. So being the only option in the marketplace HAD to work in Lionel's favor. Despite having this near-exclusive in the marketplace, Lionel also had financial problems. It had the same cash-flow problems as American Flyer and was sold in bankruptcy -- a year after acquiring Flyer -- to General Mills, which elected NOT to cease production. Could of easily worked the other way around, I guess.

This type of scenario happens all the time in the business world -- not to imply that Lionel bought Flyer just to shut it down, but that's how history says it worked out.

In truth, the quality of the trains made by Flyer in the 1960s declined because the company was suffering from cash flow problems. Kids were moving toward toys different from model trains, plus TV was now taking up a lot of hours once set aside for hobbies. Gilbert Co. had made some very poor decisions regarding its other, non-train toys -- slot car sets especially. All of the toy manufacturers at that time were cutting back on quality to meet the low-price demands of discount stores, which were replacing the more traditional hardware store and mom-and-pop hobby shop retail outlets for toy trains.

So the decline of toy trains in general and specific individual companies came as a result of many, many factors. Unlike Flyer, Lionel had an owner with sufficient capital resources to continue to produce model trains. The strong do survive, at least in this case.

[palallin]

Marx produced trains into the '70s. Flyer was long dead by '67. And the conditions of the sales of Flyer and of Lionel are vastly different.