UP licensees

[Bob Keller]

There are curently 104 who've signed on. The only O gauge three-rail businesses shown are Atlas and Berkshire Valley and McDonald Models (custom runs of cars by Weaver).


http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/licensing/suppliers.shtml

[Anonymous]

Shame on all 104 of them, who only make things more difficult for those entities which are in the right in a whole number of ways (especially relating to long-used fallen flags). Hopefully, someone--or group of someones--will eventually see fit to stand up and fight. I'm not terribly confident that will happen, but it sure should!

[Bob Keller]

I think way back when UP sued Lionel, I looked at the list and had the impression that there were only 15 or 20. Seems the fear of legal action is a tried and true method of negotiation!

[cnw1995]

Maybe that someone will be MTH - I've heard on another forum (unconfirmed of course) that they're being sued by the UP.

[Jumijo]

According to the story at the link below, MTH is being sued by UP.

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/006/398dlbpc.asp

Jim

[tmcc man]

Now I have to stop buying Southern Pacific, or any other "fallen flag" stuff for my outdoor railroad. Honestly, i do not want to pay more for one car just because it has a different name than the one next to it. This in my opinion is not fair. Actually, it is really unfair because you see no other RR company doing this. I am not going to get the UP calendar any more. Also, if people are just diving into the hobby and are looking for a train that they will see any given day, they will be driven away by the prices of the UP equipment they would like to have.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

I think way back when UP sued Lionel, I looked at the list and had the impression that there were only 15 or 20. Seems the fear of legal action is a tried and true method of negotiation!

I thought I had heard that Lionel had settled. I know that Athearn did. How old is your list Bob?

The bankruptcy filing seemed to have been timed perfectly to thwart UP as well as MTH.

Perhaps the most annoying thing about all of this is some railroads like UP are pushing hard, and others like BNSF are not.

[Bob Keller]

If they did, they didn't tell it to us. We checked the bankruptcy documentation today and it was moved from civil court to bankruptcy court in Nebraska, and per documentation there (updates at 6 month intervals) everything appears to be on hold until Lionel is reorganized.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Bob, must have been my imagination. You know how fast rumors can fly in cyberspace.[swg]

Out of curiosity, have you heard anything on MTH's HO venture with DCS? The MR boys are licking their chops. Many feel that it will never come to pass. Tough market to crack, and Mike hasn't made many friends there.

[Bob Keller]

I think they're still moving forward, but like their entry into large scale, it is beyond my area of interest, so other than the initial announcement of their entering HO, I haven't been paying much attention.

[prewardude]

Personally, I find this latest lawsuit rather amusing. The model train companies just can't stay out of trouble! [(-D] And to think: it used to be that the railroads would often PAY the model train companies to use their logos (as a form of advertising). My, how times have changed!

[Anonymous]

As I've said other times this topic has come up, I'm not opposed to UP licensing its logo. However, I am opposed to them charging money for its use by train manufacturers.

In the article, it says that UP is asking MTH to "send its Union Pacific-branded products to the railroad to be destroyed". To me, that is waaaay too extreme! Wanting MTH to pay them the money they feel they are entitled to for producing these models is one thing, but ordering the models themselves to be destroyed is completely outrageous! Nothing makes my blood boil more than thinking of toy trains being senselessly destroyed! If UP wants MTH to give them the models (which in itself is quite extreme in my opinion), then use them as publicity or promotional items or corporate giveaways or for charitble purposes, such as using them for a layout at a children's hospital or something. Another thing in the article that caught my attention was that UP wants MTH to pay for "lost revenue and damages". I understand the lost revenue part, but just how has UP been "damaged" as a result of MTH making models of their trains?

Colin, You are never going to have to pay more for a car lettered for UP or a fallen flag that they have absorbed than you would another car. The cost of the licensing program would be distributed among all the trains a company producess. So, if an icrease in price occurred, it would be on all their trains.

prewardude, How very true (and sad!). While most railroads did this, one specific example of UP soliciting train manufacturers is American Flyer's UP "Pony Express" passenger set. UP had a regular AF set custom painted and then sent it back to Gilbert saying that if they made that set, they would pay them any associated costs involved with its production.

[prewardude]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sask_Tinplater

...prewardude, How very true (and sad!). While most railroads did this, one specific example of UP soliciting train manufacturers is American Flyer's UP "Pony Express" passenger set. UP had a regular AF set custom painted and then sent it back to Gilbert saying that if they made that set, they would pay them any associated costs involved with its production.

Yep, and if I recall correctly, both the Santa Fe and The New York Central paid Lionel to put their names on Lionel's F3s when they were introduced in 1947.

[tmcc man]

Sask, I was reading my Garden Railway's magazine, and I was looking at all the different adds. It so happened that every UP named item was either $5 more than any other car, as well as the locos, which were sometimes $15 up in price. I agree with you, and how much money will be wasted when they destroy MTH products under the UP name. Thank God that I do not model the UP full time, or I would not be in this hobby. Honestly, they could just forget about the lawsuit (which I know would never happen). I wonder how they will destroy the products, put them on the rails and run them over. You know what, I wi***hat the UP was absorbed all together and quite frankly forgotten about. I wonder about pictures now. Are they going to check railimages.net or any other sites to see if photos of their trains have been taken? I bet if they would, they would either sue, or charge money for each train, whether rail car or loco. As I am writing this, I am ripping my UP pictures down from my trainroom wall. If I see a UP loco ever, and the crews surrounding it, I will yell "How much will you charge me to take a picture of your engine?" or even "Can I ask a question about the UP or am I going to get charged for that as well?" They are the stupidest and most greedy people I have ever heard of. People like that should not be around. So now I am officially a UP Basher. The stUPid UP once again strikes. I hate them. Just my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Colin, I had no idea that this was so. It's the first I've heard of it. To me it seems to make much more sense to distribute the cost over all your products. Being into the old stuff, I'm not really up on current production all that much.

[Warburton]

You'd think UP had more important things on its plate than harassing model railroaders. They allowed model train manufacturers to use their name and logo for a hundred years without a problem, and NOW they're complaining?? Personally, I think Lionel and mTH should refuse top pay a cent even if they lose in court and stop making UP lines product. I can live without it (Lionel Lines is good enough for me!!).

[tmcc man]

Sask, I myself was suprised as well with this. Warburton I agree wit you and I do not understand why they suddenly changed their minds about this subject. I know they want to protect their logo, but their way is a little extreme. Destroying products from Model Railroad companies is just insane. Oh, I tore all of my UP calendar pictures down last night, and I plan on burning them all. The model railroad companies that quit making UP stuff could, I think, actually make more money if they take the UP out of their line up. There would be greater profit in my mind if they start selling less and less UP stuff, and more of the "friendlier" railroad names. If I ever went into the model train business, the name Union Pacific would not be anywhere near my production line, nor near my design drawings. I think Lionel and all Model Railroad companies should quit putting UP's name on their products, and we would see just how UP reacts to the situation. I would honestly laugh if they came back trying to apologize about the situation they caused. I bet you the money they get from the suing they have done is going into other things, and they are just forgetting about the workers. I hope a union strike happens, and then BNSF, NS, and CSX take their share in the equipment, and give the workers from the UP jobs on their railroads. This is just my opinion, and I know people will disagree with me.

[Anonymous]

I was just wondering why everyone is so upset about this?
You can't use Lionel's or MTH's name without a agreement from them, or others like UPS,McDonalds,NFL etc.Lionel didn't give away TMCC to others for free.
If it is about fallen flags somebody would have to research all the paperwork of who the name belongs to.
Or is it because UP want money to use it's name?

[nblum]

It's because UP is asking for money for things it does not own. It does not have any legal right to the trademarks of the fallen flag railways. It also has no right to charge for logos from decades ago that it did not require licensure of at that time. It's called abandonment and a few other legal terms for when you forfeit the right to ownership by failing to enforce your property rights over a long period of time.

The other issue is that the licensing requirements are one-sided and onerous in their record keeping and other matters. They require that the licensees open their books to the UP, not unlike the robber baron approaches the railroads took to frontier farmers in the 19th century. Unethical behavior approaching extortion by UP is why there is opposition, not any financial matters of licensing fees.

[tmcc man]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

It's because UP is asking for money for things it does not own. It does not have any legal right to the trademarks of the fallen flag railways. It also has not right to charge for logos from decades ago that it did not require licensure of at that time. It's called abandonment and a few other legal terms for when you forfeit the right to ownership by failing to enforce your property rights over a long period of time.

Exactly, and UP had signed no contracts with any of these railroads. So, there is no ownership with them. The only contracts that were signed were for the mergers.