High Price of trains hurting the hobby?

[Anonymous]

"and if you're really determined and ingenious you can make your own rolling stock, with computers and printers it becomes quite easy to turn out good looking thin card pieces, study a tinplate model to see how its done, in my youth we built coaches and wagons from card stock and superimposed them onto rolling underframes of old beaten up stuff and they looked jolly good too."......
Hey Thor I`m right with you on that [tup], I have been picking up junkers and rebuilding them, especially with Kusan stuff, there cheap and there value is`nt like messing around with a Lionel or eqivalant.The diesel shells can be reworked to fit a Lionel or k-line chassis coast cutting measures that work. Marx is another that is easy and cheap to kitbash.Its almost as fun as building them from scratch[tup]



[tup]

[thor]

Everyone else has answered your post very well but for what its worth whereas I do agree with your remark about how expensive the hobby is, its kind of self limiting in that those who are willing to either pay the price or find workarounds are going to be pretty dedicated and therefore its a worthwhile investment, in their terms.

The steam locos I want are all in the $1000 range but they are worth it. As someone else said, look what you get for your money! A great big hefty piece of well made machinery that could conceivably still be running on some lucky grandchilds layout 25 years from now. If I stopped smoking at NY prices I could have that Shay in 5 months.

My Vulcan consumes that in maintenance about every 6 months too...so really all those prices do is make me consider very carefully what I want and what I'm prepared to do to get it. Instant gratification is fun but speaking from experience, building up your collection one bit at a time is actually better because it makes you really appreciate each new piece. That new switch or wagon becomes a real event.

Last but not least, if you're really determined and want to get some more stuff so as to make your trains worth playing with, you can't beat trainsets for bang for the buck and if you're really determined and ingenious you can make your own rolling stock, with computers and printers it becomes quite easy to turn out good looking thin card pieces, study a tinplate model to see how its done, in my youth we built coaches and wagons from card stock and superimposed them onto rolling underframes of old beaten up stuff and they looked jolly good too.

I intend to do this myself, 0 is large enough to use real veneers to make carriage sides from, you can buy brass in all sorts of sections and thickness and plasticard will do for the rest. A train layout that is a labor of love will always be the most satisfying of all.

However I must admit that if trains were cheaper I'd buy rather than build!

[dbaker48]

Very, very interesting! I couldn't agree more with "flyingtothetop". I started with Lionel about 25yrs ago, and looked forward to MR mag, (CTT was not on the scene yet), and would scour the adds, go to meets. And usually purchase at auctions. Maybe once a year purchase a new engine or set. Always dreaming about and desiring the "high end" equipment but realized it was no doable.
Now sometime later, I have been able to get back into the HOBBY, after putting it all away for 15 years. My biggest concern was that the QUALITY of the high end equipment would have been eliminated as a result of a starving cost driven market. My gosh even LIONEL is now made in China. (Major concern about our children and grand-children regarding the economy we are creating for them.)

This may seem crazy to most and downright foolish, but I just did the following..
Purchased the AC-9 Cab Forward, at Full Price from a local train shop! (knowingly) Seems really dumb to most I'm sure. Also purchased the TMCC system. From the same source.

What did I receive ? Obviously the hardware, but more importantly support, service, guideliness, and a long term support base for issues, training and assistance. Can't imaging going to another source for that. What will happen to this hobby if all the trains shops were eliminated?

Also, this is not just 1 engine and controller, this piece is a gateway to many, many hours of entertainment and bonding with my son. And fortunately a lot of "family " quality time spent together. Not all of my purchases will be from the shop, but I will support them as long as I can.

Don't mean to ramble but the money we spent, on a hourly return basis will actually cost pennies. I don't know how I could have spent it better.

I drive a Chevy, maybe their shouldn't be Porsches, and Mercedes ?

[dbaker48]

Very, very interesting! I couldn't agree more with "flyingtothetop". I started with Lionel about 25yrs ago, and looked forward to MR mag, (CTT was not on the scene yet), and would scour the adds, go to meets. And usually purchase at auctions. Maybe once a year purchase a new engine or set. Always dreaming about and desiring the "high end" equipment but realized it was no doable.
Now sometime later, I have been able to get back into the HOBBY, after putting it all away for 15 years. My biggest concern was that the QUALITY of the high end equipment would have been eliminated as a result of a starving cost driven market. My gosh even LIONEL is now made in China. (Major concern about our children and grand-children regarding the economy we are creating for them.)

This may seem crazy to most and downright foolish, but I just did the following..
Purchased the AC-9 Cab Forward, at Full Price from a local train shop! (knowingly) Seems really dumb to most I'm sure. Also purchased the TMCC system. From the same source.

What did I receive ? Obviously the hardware, but more importantly support, service, guideliness, and a long term support base for issues, training and assistance. Can't imaging going to another source for that. What will happen to this hobby if all the trains shops were eliminated?

Also, this is not just 1 engine and controller, this piece is a gateway to many, many hours of entertainment and bonding with my son. And fortunately a lot of "family " quality time spent together. Not all of my purchases will be from the shop, but I will support them as long as I can.

Don't mean to ramble but the money we spent, on a hourly return basis will actually cost pennies. I don't know how I could have spent it better.

I drive a Chevy, maybe their shouldn't be Porsches, and Mercedes ?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardsushi

First of all if you read my original post it was reguarding Engines not sets. [banghead] And it is not unrealistic to think that the big producers cant produce a quality few engines that the novice can buy and enjoy. It was done in the 60,70, and 80`s.Low end engines and sets where an important first step in introducing the beginers to the hobby.
Lionel understood it then, why not now?

[Anonymous]

My thoughts.
1. It is now a hobby not just a toy train.
2. If you could afford everything you would loose interest because you would buy everything. Nothing to strive for.
3. It is a "hobby" so you don't just open the box and play. Try scratch building items that you cannot afford and when completed you will have a one of a kind that no one can replace.
4. It's a challenge to find post war items in great condition at a great price.
5. As a hobby it is fun to buy something and restore it to make it like new.
Reasons I do it.
1. 100LL and plane rental is too expensive.
2. Enjoyed it from my childhood
3. My kids enjoy helping.
Best compliments that make it fun.
1. This year I heard my niece (16) ask her dad if they could pull out their O guage trains for christmas next year after seeing my layout.
2. My daughters friends 12 and 13 were mesmerized by the trains running when they came over. One said "cool".
Things I don't like.
1. Trains not being made in the US.
2. More bells and whistles but lower quality.
What I don't want to see is trains being sold at "China Mart". That would cheapen the hobby and put hobby stores that carry the things you want out of business.
Rich

[Jumijo]

One big turn off to potential buyers is the inability to return train items to a hobby shop for a refund or replacement. Who wants to buy something, especially one that's precieved as expensive, knowing full well that once they paid for it, it's their problem. If it doesn't work, you have to send it in for repairs and hope it comes back fixed correctly. Is there a worse feeling than going through all that? It takes all the fun out of the purchase and taints the individual's opinion of the dealer, the manufacturer, the whole hobby. I know some dealers will replace a defective item, but not enough do that. Also, most do not offer refunds. Store credit is the best you can hope for.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Lionel, MTH, K-Line, etc. would not last two seconds if they DIDN'T focus on the guy willing to pay for the top shelf stuff!! No offence, but you guys are off your rocker blameing the guy who is willing to pay top price. This applies to sets, engines, cars, accessories... It doesn't matter. The manufactoter HAS to focus on margin. Period. If they don't, we lose, because the quality toy train makers will be out of business.

Someone mentioned ( and I'm paraphrasing) on this thread or another that K Lines battery operated set may have help introduce families to toy trains, but they did a terrible job marketing the set. Folks... when you manufactor a set, and sell it for nothing, you have NO money built in to advertise!!! And again, manufactorers can't afford to rob peter to pay paul when it comes to advertising. I don't believe K-Line had any intention of advertising the battery set. They were simply trying to bank on a few folks willing to spend a little money, not grow the hobby. Within the price, of that 1200.00 loco is a set amount of money that will pay for the stunning, glosy photo that will be put on the cover of next years catalog. There's no money built into that 1200.00 loco to pay for the advertisement of the battery operated set. Doesn't work that way. Mike Wolfe, Lionel, etc. They know that, from experience, X amount of people are going to be willing to pay full price for that engine. These folks drive the market, and thus, pu***he manufactorer to keep putting out new, exciting product! Maybe... few of us can afford "NEW", but instead of blaming the people who pay full price... we should be greatful that they do, because the sheer variety of makes and types of toy trains available today, is off the charts!
Greg

[marxalot]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

High prices are not hurting the hobby. People willing to pay the high prices benig sought for high-end items are hurting the hobby.

I struggle with this although I've read many of Alan's well written discourses in the past . Once again, take a look at gterhaar's posting. While I have not purchased at the high end I can see where that end is needed for the companies to make a profit. If no high end equipment was sold, then everything else would have to increase to cover those lost revenues. And to a point is it really accurate to blame one group for any one problem? This fellow who buys that high end item may well have taken previous posted advice and saved his money for a year or so..... but HE is the problem?

The original question/comment seemed related to a newcomer. It would be better if the catalogs were arranged in reverse order! You know, from least to most. And while I have a limited appreciation for the LHS, here is where the newcomer can be helped or hurt. Hopefully the LHS owner will sense the gulp that occurs by the newcomer and will help them to see that the hobby is not all about $1500 locomotives and that a lot of FUN can be had for a lot less. If someone just picks up a CTT to determine whether he wants to get into the hobby he should still be able to find any price range he wants. they are all there.............

Take the above with $1.50 and get yourself a good cup of coffee...........

A belated Happy New Year

Jim

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

High prices are not hurting the hobby. People willing to pay the high prices benig sought for high-end items are hurting the hobby.

Amen!

Hey, Allan, I sent you an e-mail a few days ago regarding an article you wrote about K-Line's S2 switchers. [tup]


Jim

[Anonymous]

High prices are not hurting the hobby. People willing to pay the high prices benig sought for high-end items are hurting the hobby.

[c50truck]

Hi Richardsushi, reread gterhaar post. He hit the American market nail squarely on the head. I'm a retail business owner. We work harder every year for less everyday. Lionel, MTH, and the rest are simply looking for a margin. Trains, all be it engines or sets, are a hobby. Hobbies are discretionary income. Spend what you can. But most of all have fun.

[Anonymous]

First of all if you read my original post it was reguarding Engines not sets. [banghead] And it is not unrealistic to think that the big producers cant produce a quality few engines that the novice can buy and enjoy. It was done in the 60,70, and 80`s.Low end engines and sets where an important first step in introducing the beginers to the hobby.
Lionel understood it then, why not now?

[LS1Heli]

I just don't understand what everyone wants here. $75 doesnt get you crap. A Lionel set for $75 was in the 70's. Doesn't anyone think that Lionel has already thought about this? Thats why they are do profitable business now...because they are doing it right. They could CARELESS about building a customer base that is young. They are capitlizing on the people who bought the stuff in the 40's and 50's, charging high prices because THESE PEOPLE HAVE THE MONEY. Maybe when they all die then Lionel will start to worry about a "young customer base". This is why 1/2 the catalog is filled with $1,000 engines.

Some posted "do we need all the bells and whistles" and the answer that Lionel observed is YES. They did all the research. People want realism. They don't want a sounding buzzing E-unti from 300 years ago. It's over with.

People already complain about how the "new" stuff is junk(when it's not) and are complaning the price is high. So what do you think $75 dollars is going to get you?

Lionel starter set is 31936 is $139.99 at Wholsale trains. Smoke, Fastrack, 80w transformer and 4 cars. What is so exspenive about that? Hell and HO set would cost you $50. Now thats junk!

[Anonymous]

I sell for a domestic manufactorer. In the last five years we've gone from quarrying and fabricating 100% of our own stone, to importing nearly 40% India, and China fabricated product. The reality for us is that we're not selling any more units each year than we did five years ago... it's just that now we are making less, because the product is being manufactored over seas. If the same holds true in toy trains, Lionel, MTH, K-Line, etc., are not selling any more, but making less per unit. It would take more than a $ 75.00 set at near cost to make up the difference. Just as the company I work for has done... If I'm MTH, or Lionel, I'm going to focus on areas where we do make money. ie... buyers who can afford our nicest product, because they are getting their margins from these folks. Not from the family who buys a $ 75.00 set that they make nothing on, with the hopes of making a lifelong buyer out of them. No manufactorer today can afford that risk. Expecting Lionel, or MTH or anyone to do so, is in my opionion,, a pipedream. Not that I would'nt love an inexpensive set. I can barely afford this hobby, but I make do, like everyone else. Just my two cents... I like to hear the disagreements.
Greg

[Anonymous]

I agree, a "get your feet wet" set for $100 and under. K-line produced an O-guage set that ran on D-batteries came with remote control and ran on plastic tracks.It could also run on o-27 track as well.It was out this year and selling for $40.It was not marketed very well because a few people knew it was out there.

[MTsteamfan]

QUOTE: It's just there catalogs come out and they overwhelm you with the pricey stuff.

It's that way with anyone's catalog though. I have here a Pioneer car stereo catalog... the big $1000+ GPS/DVD units are right in front -- sometimes one model covering a whole page-- while the $100 indash CD player is tucked in a small picture on page 25.

I agree that any hobby can cost you just what you want it to. I've got a lot of cash in my trains but when people look at the layout we put up in our store at Christmas time, it's all worth it. And it'll all still work next year for no more $$! (If I can keep from buying any new stuff....yeah right!)

[jimhaleyscomet]

To get a cheap set into the hobby (under $100 retail) Lionel would have to bypass the dealers (and DISTRIBUTERS!). I think those same folks see $75 sets for sell at Wallyworld as a threat. However, you can get $50 HO and N sets at many retailers. It does not seem to hurt the hobby shops as many of them have more HO and N than O. Many folks would start with a cheap set at wallyworld and get track and high end gear at a hobby shop. I think the dealers/distributers should pressure Lionel to put out a $75 set.

Jim H

[Anonymous]

I agree with you 100%....... [^]

[Warburton]

I wish Lionel would put together a decent (not DC!) starter set to retail for less than $100 and get into places like Target and Wal-Mart. I'm still amazed at the number of people who think Lionel went out of business 30 years ago. By being there (mass retailers), people will become better educated on the matter AND maybe start into putting together a layout, etc. Even if Lionel had to sell this set at near cost, wouldn't that be worth it to them to build a future customer base?

[Anonymous]

Yes as a matter of fact I have.And shop there often.Once again as I have stated before I am speaking from the aspect of a person starting out in this hobby.For a person looking into this hobby for the first time, glancing through Classic toy trains for the first time and checking out the advertisments for engines might give second thoughts.And once again I am not speaking for myself.I have been collecting for over 20 years and understand it can get expensive.And yes I understand other hobbies can become expensive also.I feel that its worth the cost in return of the pleasure I get collecting and running my trains.I feel that my point was totally misunderstood.[banghead]

[prrhorseshoecurve]

QUOTE: Engine prices are coming close to a mortgage payment. Even low end products cost an arm and a leg. Sure I love all the lights and sounds but do we really need all this realism that drives prices out of reach for most of us.

I guess you haven't e-Bayed lately HUH?

[pbjwilson]

Atlas came out with the Trainman cars, MTH has rugged rails, Lionels got starter set add-ons - I think the manufacturers are listening to the lower end market. It's just there catalogs come out and they overwhelm you with the pricey stuff. On a whole I think the prices have moderated in the last few years. Let's hope they continue to do so.

[Anonymous]

I'm pretty new around here and to model trains in general, but will chime in anyway.

To me, this is a pretty complicated issue. I think anyone who has spent time with this hobby is accustomed to the pricing, but expects equivalent quality and detail. I'm sure by this point the cost of the hobby has already been justified in the budget and thus isn't a real surprise when heading to hobby store, or online shops.

Casual hobbyists may feel that the cost no longer justifies the benefits and uses that as a reason to find a new hobby.

Where I think cost hurts the hobby is people shopping for a new hobby. Although you can find lower cost trains, etc, someone stopping by the hobby shop to look at sets, or engines because of fond memories from their youth probably receive a fair amount of sticker shock. It is a hobby that requires a substantial research time to know that it doesn't have to be expensive. I was drawn to it because of the fond memories of childhood sitting by the tracks waiting and watching the trains go by. It is a nice alternative to anything TV related eg: video games.

Let's face it, most hobbies are expensive. We live in a capitalist economy, we are programmed to make money and drive sales. So, if a hobby is inexpensive, you can bet it is someone's job to figure out how to change that. I've got thousands invested in golf equipment and yet I have to pay to use it. I've got plenty tied up in tools for woodworking, not cheap. Video games too that will be obsolete next year.

As you can see on Ebay these trains can be good for 50+ years and it only costs the small amount of electricity to run after you've made the purchase. In the long run it seems quite reasonable...in the long run.

My two cents,
David

[jimhaleyscomet]

The old days (1950's) were before my time. However it seems like people would start with a train set and add one or two accessories or switches a year. Even at $75 each that would be very affordable today and would serve to keep kids interested over a longer time period.

There is plenty of low priced stuff out there although the selection is finite (Beeps, Porters, and K-line switcher sets). True a $50 car is expensive...but it is affordable if you buy only one per year. Waiting for it helps makes it special.

I think the only thing that makes this hobby expensive is when we want to add different track, engines, cars, and accessories weekly or monthly. You rapidly run out of affordable additions and need to move up the price list to keep getting new stuff. If instead you go slowly there is pleanty of affordable stuff for years of collecting.

Jim H

[Anonymous]

I sorry if you guys misunderstood my statements,I was refering to the first timer looking to get started in this hobby.[B)]

[jonadel]

Richard, what are YOU complaining about???????????

There are plenty of ways to enter this hobby without going to the max on your credit cards, just do a little leg work and you will find tons of bargains.

If you really want the high end stuff consider a 2nd part time job or simply put away some money at the end of the month, after a few months of saving it will be easier for you to decided if you really do want that special engine

I can you tell you from the time of the 70's when I had two small boys how much I wanted Lionel diesels, I couldn't afford them so I settled for entry level sets, still have them and enjoy them but not as much as the entry level Railkings I have now. We've come along way baby and bargains can be found.

Jon

[Anonymous]

Sorry, Richard, but the photos you posted negate your entire premise. You're complaining about something that you quite obviously have no basis for complaining about.

[elvisp]

Isn't any hobby expensive. The good thing about trains is that you can buy a $100 post war set or a mint set worth $10,000. Everyone who collect postwar strives for a boxed high end set. However, most people can still collect within their price range. You don't have to collect mint boxed prewar/post war or rare variations. There are levels for just about everyone.

The same hold true with the modern trains. While the $1K scale engines are great. If you collect modern locos you hope one day to have these in your collection. However, it seems to me that most manufactures have levels of trains for most budgets.