My New MRC Pure Power Dual Controller

[Jumijo]

I finally hooked it up last night and ran some trains with it. The trains ran fine. My Railsounds tender sounded sort of sputtery and drifted of and on until I got the throttle up over 10 v. Then it sounded ok. Electronic horns and whistles, which include Thomas, the Railsounds Tender, and a Trainsounds FT deisel, all worked, as did the bells. But the two modern air whistles I have, a PWC 773 tender and the Polar Express tender don't do well at all. The throttle has to be way up in the 15 - 17 V region to elicite a faint whistle at best, and the trains slow way down when the whistle button is pushed. The slow down is considered normal by MRC, according to the flyer included with the transformer.

Thomas and my RMT Beep each ran fine without the impedence track usually required with a CW-80. A big plus.

The CW-80 had no problems with the whistles/horns/sounds, and never caused the trains to slow down when operating those functions. It did make Thomas and the Beep do some funky stuff, even with the impedence lighted track.

The whistle thing, I'm not so happy about.

Jim

[dwiemer]

Jim,
Thanks for sharing the information. I was looking into the MRC for a future big layout after reading your post on the other thread. Now I think I will be going with a z4000 and a reconditioned pw ZW.
Dennis

[Jumijo]

I talked with MRC today. The PPDC I have isn't expected and wasn't designed to make mechanical air whistles work. I wish I had known that beforehand. Roughly half of my fleet have air whistles. One would think that a transformer that can handle all different types of complicated sound systems could handle something as basic as making a standard mechanical air whistle work too.

And people wonder why this hobbies ranks are dwindling. I guess there really is no panacea. It's always give and take. Ya can't have it all.

As far as new purchases are concerned over the coming year, I no longer plan to make any. I'm fed up with "this will work with that but not those or these here". When everything is standardized and all the manufacturer's goods play nice together, come talk to me. Until then, the wallet is closed.

Jim

[Anonymous]

I can understand your frustration, Jim, since I've had similar experiences myself in recent years. Hard for anyone to know what to expect these days when one buys a new product. I've never been a fan of MRC transformers in any case, although I do have an use a number of the DC power packs for other scales. I have yet to hear of an MRC transformer that didn't cause problems with one make/type of train or train feature.

If I was going for a large transformer, my choice would be the MTH Z4000 or the Lionel ZW, although I would likely go with the Z4000 because it appears to have a very good reputation and I just like the general design of the thing.

If possible, I would consider returning your MRC transformer and going with something else. You're lucky that your CW-80 is performing well across all brands and types of motive power. I was not that furtunate with mine.

[waltrapp]

I must be the only 100% satisifed MRC dual 270 owner in the world!

- walt

[Jumijo]

Allan,

I thought I did due-diligence on this. I researched it and thought it through. Finally, my wife bought one for me for Christmas. I've heard bad things about the Z4000s and new ZW's. The MRC was advertised as doing everything the other brands did for much less money. But not one person I spoke with ever had a bad thing to say about MRC's transformer. No one told me if you want whistle sounds, you're supposed to stand there and shout "toot toot"!

The CW-80s I have aren't golden either. One has already been replaced and besides that, they make my kid's Thomas and B&M Beep do what can only be described as the dance of the boiled onion.

Just since October, My family and I have spent over $900 on electric trains and accessories. That might not seem like a lot to many, but I'm just an ordinary working stiff. That's a small fortune to me. I cannot justify spending like that based on what I'm getting (or not getting) in return. I started in this hobby exactly a year ago as a way for my kids and I to share a wholesome hobby. Had I known one has to be part electrical engineer, part voodoo doctor to enjoy it, I would not have gone any farther than the Thomas starter set.

Jim

[nblum]

The manufacturers test their power supplies and systems with their own locomotives. Thus, at least IMO, it is a good idea in this particular branch of the hobby to stick with one manufacturer (e.g., Lionel or MTH) for control electronics for your locomotives. If you use Lionel electronics to control MTH locos, or vice versa, you do need more than average comfort with trouble shooting electronic/computer devices. At least with my approach, you know when things aren't working well, something is probably not working properly, as opposed to merely being partially or completely incompatible.

[dk99358]

walt, you are not alone. I've only had mine since Thanksgiving but so far I like it.

Dale

[jimhaleyscomet]

The lionel CW-80 does not play well with my new Lionel sound car (whistle blows if power set too high) so even staying with one manufacturer is no guarantee.

This hobby has the same advantage/problem the personal computer has. First there are an infinate amount of different equipment configurations and an infinate amount of fun capabilities. The disadvantage is no one can possibly test all the configurations.

What I do when I get frustrated is to return to more simple layouts / controls until I get everything working. I also run separate loops of track on my layout with different transformers to get maximum flexiblity running different types of train controls.

Jim H

[prewardude]

I said this in another thread, and I'll say it here: If they would just go back to making good, old-fashioned transformers with coils, we wouldn't be having these problems with incompatibilities. It all stems from the manufacturers trying to improve their bottom line with cheaper-to-make solid state transformers that produce a modified waveform (as opposed to a pure sine-wave). There aren't too many things that get me really PO'd in this hobby, but this is one of them. There simply is no excuse for one power supply not being compatible with another manufacturers products - or not even being able to blow a simple mechanical whistle, for goodness' sake! Feh! [:(!]

[Anonymous]

My 3 post war ZWs are on standby to my TPC/PoHo set up these days. But once the ZWs are upfitted with new cord, new rollers{wipers}, new binding posts where needed and 40 amp stud type rectifier diodes [anode +to case-$3.50ea.] to replace the whistle/horns's old copper or selenium rectifiers; they are one again a virtual bulletproof, safe and dependable 180-190 watt power supply for TMCC, DCS or Conventional use and a unit that will last 20 more years before needing another upfit.[the 270 watt rating applies to input consumption not output wattage---different on modern units]
You can get all the parts needed[above] for less than $20 or you can send it to one of many repairmen and get fixed up for about $70-80 including packing and shipping. As Harry Henning a Pa.repairman said, "pack it like it was your mom's china". It is expensive to pack and ship so the best choice is to find a service station or ZW repair guy within driving distance.

A viable alternative for DIY types is to recondition it yourself. Buy Jim Barrett's Backshop videos, Volumes One and Two, which show and tell how to make the four repairs highlighted above.

Then you can link the "new" old ZW up with fast-acting fuses or breakers sized to fit the distribution of load you choose to allocate among the four throttles.

p.s:
The 270 watt[output] MRC transformer Walt has is a good compatible transformer. MRC got a deservedly bad rap for its 270 watt Dual Power transformer of 8-10 years ago which was a troublesome unit. Their new 270 "Dual Power" is a different unit altogether as is their single power 135 watt unit. MRC should have changed the name of the new units to avoid the poor quality Dual Power legacy.

[ChiefEagles]

NOW JIMBO!!!!! Get your blood pressure back down. [;)] Did you remember to ask if a Lionel whistle controler would activate the wistles when used in conjunction with the MRC? [remember our converstaion yesterday?] Bet it will. You know me, I love my postwar ZW's and KW's with quick acting circuit breaker boxes added. [:)] Did get my Williams flyer and the new Williams transformer is in it.

[krapug1]

OK, for those who have the MRC PPDC, AND like it, do your mechanical air whistles work ??.

I too have been considering the MRC, BUT I only run trains in traditional mode, AND I find sound systems annoying. All I want from a transformer is enough power for my layout, AND to activate BASIC horns, bells, and whistles,
No More, No Less.

From what I am hearing so far, my current power supply of a Z, with two 167 controllers, may be a keeper.

Ken

[dk99358]

<OK, for those who have the MRC PPDC, AND like it, do your mechanical air whistles work ??.>

Yes, but not as well as with the Lionel transformers I already had . For me, it's no big deal. I only have one mechanical whistle to worry about and it's in an engine from my son's starter set that we don't run very much.

<I too have been considering the MRC, BUT I only run trains in traditional mode, AND I find sound systems annoying. All I want from a transformer is enough power for my layout, AND to activate BASIC horns, bells, and whistles,
No More, No Less. From what I am hearing so far, my current power supply of a Z, with two 167 controllers, may be a keeper.>

Probably is. For me, the MRC replaced 2 smaller units, gave me bell buttons, higher voltages, meters, new breakers, and an on/off switch. It was a large gain and the only loss was the whistle in one engine that I don't run much. YMMV.

Dale

[ChiefEagles]

No one has amswered. Does adding a Lionel whistle controller work to make air whistles work?

[Gillty]

I've been considering replacing my old Z transformer with a new one so I can control the bells & whistles on our newer locos (Mostly MTH but I do have some older air whistles too). I saw on another post that I can purchase 2 Lionel sound activation devices and connect them consecutively between the transformer and the track. One for the whistle and one for the bell. (I guess I need 4 since I run 2 separate loops). I'm now thinking I can stick with the Z.

Is there anything else I should be concerned with with the Z? Some of you sound like you've updated your ZW's with "quick acting circuit breakers" and other enhancements. Just don't want the old Z transformer to fry some of today's more delicate electronics.

Thanks,
Rich

[ChiefEagles]

I am using an old ZW and will be using two KW's. I definately recommend quick acting circuit breakers between your transformer and an electronics [TIU, track and etc]. Some use quick acting fuses but have to be replaced when blown. I see Bob Nelson says you can use quick acting circuit brakers purchased at automotive parts houses. I build a quick acting circuit breaker box and used an OGR Backshop video as a guide [ http://ogaugerr.com/ click on web store, then backshop videos and then on older videos and it is # 8]. They are also available [but cost more] commercially.

[lionelsoni]

Frank, the automotive breakers are not particularly quick. They're very similar to the type built into the traditional transformers. I use them because there really should be an individual breaker on each transformer output, not the single breaker in series with the common that Lionel favored.

[waltrapp]

I'll mention another thing that I like about my 'newer version' MRC - the breakers are F-A-S-T!!!!

I am using my MRC to power 2 fixed ports on my TIU. I front end the TIU with fast-blow fuses that pop with the smallest derailment. I have had occassions, not alot but some, where the MRC breakers pop before the fuses!

- walt

[DCmontana]

Reading this thread and similar ones makes me very thankful for Williams!

[[e-mail]]

Hi - Electronically how do the Z-4000's compare with the NEW MRC? I talked with a hobby shop guy at a show and he complained about the Z-4000's fuses (four of them I believe). They appear to be the same type as in most newer cars and when one blows the whole transformer shuts down. Gets replacements at an auto store.

[wrmcclellan]

Micromaster,

The Z-4000 uses circuit breakers. I believe the hobby shop guy was discussing the MTH TIU, which is internally fused for 20 amps (!) for each of the 4 outputs. These automotive style fuses are to protect the circuit boards in the TIU and not the trains. Each TIU output is rated at about 10 amps control capacity. If this guy is blowing the 20 amp fuses regularly I have to wonder what he is doing.

Regards,
Roy

[willpick]

The Z4000's circuit breakers are used to protect the internal transformer ONLY. The outputs of the Z4000 are protected by electronic current limiting. The outputs are actually a generated 60Hz sine wave, fed into an audio amplifier to create the 0 to 22vac. makes for very clean 60Hz power--

[[e-mail]]

Thanks Roy and all. The debate continues I guess but I'm thinking the MTH transformer is a better choice than the MRC at this time. The old ZW however will have to suffice until I can afford the MTH.

Thanks again.

[mickey4479]

Are the new Lionel ZW transformers any different electronically speaking from the old (10 years and older) ?

[Anonymous]

"Are the new Lionel ZW transformers any different electronically speaking from the old (10 years and older)?"

Yes...VERY much so. The old ZW is a self contained transformer with an internal coil for power output. This setup produces a pure sine-wave ouput which is compatible with virtually all O-gauge equipment (from past or present).

In comparison, the new ZW is more of a "power controller" than a self contained transformer. The new ZW uses "phase control" to modify the amount of output from Lionel "Powerhouse" bricks. Phase control has the side effect of chopping the sine-wave, causing incompatibility and operating anomalies with some modern equipment. To Lionel's credit, the phase control system in the new ZW is quite sophisticated and barely chops the sine-wave when compared to other modern transformers. Nonetheless, some modern engines still have problems with the new ZW (mostly MTH PS1 engines made before 1997).

I think the only pure sine-wave transformers that are in current production are the MRC Pure Power and the MTH Z-4000. Given the price difference, the MRC Pure Power is a VERY attractive option. The only problem with the MRC Pure Power is the fact that the whistle controller does not put out enough juice to properly operate mechanical air whistles (as mentioned above).