MTH Union Pacific E-8 AA Diesel Set with Proto Sound - WON'T RUN

[Anonymous]

Hi All,

We purchased a MTH / Rail King E-8 AA Diesel Set last week for my sons birthday (he's 5). He currently has a 3 rail 027 Pennsylvania Flyer set that has been modified to now use O31 curved track. The transformer is the stock Lionel 18vac 3 amp (77watts) transformer that came with the PA Flyer. The new engine is pretty big and both the powered engine and the dummy engine weigh about 10 lbs combined.

The problem is... I can not get the darn thing to run. I have had success with just the main powered engine on the track but only after screwing around with the various buttom combinations (e.g. have the power knob at approx. 8 volt, hit and hold the horn button, turn off power and release the horn button - the engine then dings once).

The unit has Proto Sound and from what I can gather, it's version # 1 since it makes no reference to Proto Sound 2.0 like I've seen.

My wife is now nagging the living daylights out of me, saying we bought a bad engine (it's new in the box but I'm told by my local train shop, it may be a couple of years old). The retailer supposedly installed a new battery before shipping it - I was told this when I called there yesterday for help.

Are any of you who might be familiar with the MTH E-8 AA with Proto Sound that can get me out of a jam?

Another thing my local train guy said was... a) Lionels Xfmrs don't produce clean power and Proto Sound requires clean power, b) the 18vac 3 amp 77 watt xfmr for the PA Flyer is really a 40 watt, c) MTH trains will not run with lionel xfrms and d) when he tested is - he said the 2 bells indicated a bad battery or a bad circuit board.

Help... Please!!!

Rich

[spankybird]

Hi Rich, Welcome to the CTT forum.
Let's see if we can help. First what is the model number of your transformer[?]

When you first put power to the track with the engine on it, do you hear the engine start up sounds[?] if so, when you turn off the power, how long does the sound last[?] You should hear sounds for about 15 seconds after the power is turned off.

Even if it is a new battery, it may be low on charge and act like a dead one. You can TEST the engine with a std. 9 volt battery to see if it is that. Do not leave the std battery in the unit. The recharging unit will cause damage.

You may have lock the engine in netural. Also note that MTH engines power up in netural and you must press the direction button to start them to move. Do NOT do this if you have a battery problem

tom

[Anonymous]

xfmr is an AC1803000 (18vac, 3 amp, 77 watt) but if remember PIE, power equals current times voltage I come up with 18 x 3 = 54 watts

when I power up, the engine sound as though it's getting ready to leave the station - ding, ding, shhhhh, engine noises, etc.

I would say the sound last a few seconds afterward, maybe 5 or 8 but I doubt 15.

I also found in the manual (of all places to look) that if you set the dial at approx 8 volts, hold the horn button, turn the dial to off and release the button, the engine goes ding. this is supposed to reset the beast.

[Anonymous]

and btw, I have tried that reset like I said originally

[Anonymous]

That is a marginal power pack for this locomotive. 75-80 watts would be better. Run the checks that Tom outlined.

Worst care for most PS-1 units is that a weak battery leads to a scrambled chip. Sometimes you can unlock a loco, sometimes it requires the board be reset by use of a "force chip" /reset procedure.

Factory reset is feature 18, accessing this is a little more complicated than what you outlined.

[spankybird]

Check your manual, most PS1 engine are reset to factory setting with reset 18.

It will tell you to turn on the engine at 8 volts and increase it to at least 15 volts and decrease it to 4 to 6 volts. Repeat this 18 times. you should hear 3 clanks and 3 clicks. Press the horn button for 4 seconds or so and then trun off the power. Turn it back on should have it reset to factory setting.

Check your manual, some engines used something other than 18 for factory reset.

tom

[Anonymous]

I did see something on the 18 reset option, I'll have to look at that. and here I thought, I could just say happy birthday son... let's try your new train out.

he's only 5 years old... so let me ask you this, will we / he need to reset this thing every time he plays with it? or has daddy now dived into the model train world headfirst?

additionally our local train guy has z1000's on order, they should be in by weeks end. they are $99 or a buck a watt. would you give the z1000 a siskel and ebert thumbs up?

is all O, O27 and O31 gauge trains AC ???

[Anonymous]

oh and I also seen some little switch on the bottom of the train itself, any ideas on that?

[Anonymous]

Switch on bottom of loc has to do with the electro couplers. Z-1000 would be a good choice as a replacement.

PS, if the battery is fully charged this won't happen again. NiCads have a shelf life of about 5 years. Most PS-1suff is now into that range. Trouble has to do with the way PS-1 system was designed and that the weak battery leaves a loco vulnerable to scrambling under certain conditions.

PS-1 starts up in "Reset" mode. This allows the operator to "program" features by using voltage shifts and +/- DC offsets (whistle/orn button). A lot of folks don't wait for the loco to come out of reset before they start trying to run the train. Even if you do wait, if there is an inadvertant voltage transient from anything on the layout, the loco may pick up this noise and take it as a command. SInce it isn' t a coherent command it usually does bad things. A small handful of loco's had chip sets that were extrememly susceptible to scrambling from these type of events. These loco's need the force chip to effect repairs.

[daan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kidstrain

... so let me ask you this, will we / he need to reset this thing every time he plays with it? or has daddy now dived into the model train world headfirst?

additionally our local train guy has z1000's on order, they should be in by weeks end. they are $99 or a buck a watt. would you give the z1000 a siskel and ebert thumbs up?

is all O, O27 and O31 gauge trains AC ???

If the battery is proper loaded and the engine works, it stays that way. You don't have to do that all the time. You dived into modern trains head first.

Almost every 3 rail 0 gauge is AC, apart from a few Lionel engines made in the 80's.
The Z1000 is about 100 watts and should be a good choice.

[Anonymous]

a few comments have said if the battery has a good charge... how exactly does it charge? must I charge the battery outside the train or does it charge simply by being powered on the track? and if it is charged while on the track, would it be a good idea to set the engine on the track and apply power and just let it sit for a while?

sorry for all the novice question.

[Anonymous]

I had the same problem with MTH Redbird subway cars, I hooked the track to me Lionel transformer and It wouldn't run!!!.I then purchased A MTH Z-7000 Transformer and the cars ran , sound, horns and station announcements.My other MTH steam Engines run off my lionel ZW transformers but this set wouldnt . I think it had something to do with the protosound. I have another Mth R-22 subway cars without protosound and they run off my Lionel power source
Go figure?
Hope this helps
[banghead]

[spankybird]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kidstrain

1. I did see something on the 18 reset option, I'll have to look at that. and here I thought, I could just say happy birthday son... let's try your new train out.

2. he's only 5 years old... so let me ask you this, will we / he need to reset this thing every time he plays with it? or has daddy now dived into the model train world headfirst?

3. additionally our local train guy has z1000's on order, they should be in by weeks end. they are $99 or a buck a watt. would you give the z1000 a siskel and ebert thumbs up?

4. is all O, O27 and O31 gauge trains AC ???

Sound like many other member have already givin you good advise.
2. As stated before, THis should only have to be done once. Most likey it was messed up when you were pussing different buttons and didn't know it. Live and learn.

3. It is a fair price, I pick one up at a train meet for $40.00

4. Not all O Gauge trains are AC. Lionel have made some that ran on DC. Several of thier American 4-4-0 Generals are this way. There is also a small part of the hobby that only run there O gague trains on DC.

tom

[Anonymous]

The battery will charge if the loco is left on the track in neutral. This is the easiest way to charge a PS-1 unit. Newer engines have a battery charge jack that can be used to charge the engine. Biggest issue with the original NiCads is whether it will hold a charge. NicCads are susceptible to "memory effect". If you don't fully discharge a NiCad and then recharge it, it starts to only hold a partial charge. If caught early you can reverse the effect by draining the battery through a automotive brake light or some other resistive load. NEVER short the terminals of any battery to "discharge" it. If the battery has been short charged too many times it's pretty much shot. Also, if the battery is too old, it's shot. Rechargeable batteries are chemical based and have a set shelf live and charge/discharge capacity cycle. AKA Battery will be good for max 5 years or x charge cycles, battery will hold a charge for Y period of time. NiCads are still preferred in some applications as they can hold a shelf charge longer than NiMH or LiO even though they have other issues (like memory).

You can't test a NiCad without some type of electrical load. A voltmeter will read a full charge and then as soon as you try to pull any power it drops. (BTW, you can tell the state of your battery by how long it does shutdown sounds when power is cut. If you fully charge the battery and then after a short running session shut down and get little or no time before sound cuts out, it's time to replace the battery.

If the battery in the loco is really dead, you have a couple of options.

A) get a replacement from MTH
B) get a replacement NiMH battery with similar characteristics from RadioShack, Battery Store, Wall Mart (Note: The MTH units are packaged in a non conductive (plastic) container. If you go the NiMH route make sure the battery case is insulated by wrapping with electrical tape.
C) use a battery replacement (BCR) if you google MTH BCR you will find links on the product. BCR is a capacitance based system that requires you leave loc in nuetral for about a minute before "playing with the trains". This charges up the BCR and you are fine for your operating session.